How many and how much space in the garden?

[Tracydr]

I'm trying to figure out how much space in the garden should be allocated to garlic and onions. Honestly, I don't think there is anyway I can grow enough onions in my small gardening space to meet my needs, which is probably one small or one half a large onion daily and two to three cloves of garlic, sometimes more per day.
But, if I could find the space, how much space would that take? I'd also like to add some shallots to use two or three times a week.
I think alliums are used in nearly every meal that I cook, including breakfast and lunch, so almost three meals a day year-round.
I don't have much gardening space but I can garden year-round. Unfortunately, alliums all need to grow in the winter in my climate, along with most of my other staple foods.
Just received my two pounds of garlic, turban and creole. I may buy another pound of soft neck garlic to plant, as well.
Anyway, starting to prepare and plan the fall gardens and was wondering how much space others allocate to their alliums.

[Elizabeth]

They don't take up much space individually, you can just tuck them in where they fit. I have used them as dividing lines or edging in my raised beds when I couldn't dedicate an area to them.

You might want to use intercropping - alternate them with other plants that have a shorter life cycle - when you harvest those the alliums can move into the vacated space.

Legumes don't seem to get along with them according to the companion planting books, and I know when I planted a row of onions in front of my beans neither thrived.

[fortyonenorth]

It sounds like you'd need about 50 sq. ft. of garlic (planted 6" OC) and about 75 sq. ft. of onions (also planted 6" OC). This would be for intensive planting - not traditional rows. This would produce roughly 200 heads (not cloves) of garlic and about 300 onions.

[Tracydr]

Sounds great. I can manage that. I'll allocate one 16x8 bed to garlic and onions and then I'll tuck some more onions in wherever they fit. Now, do most use seed or plants for the onions? I've had a hard time finding seed for short day onions but I think I'd prefer to do seed, since I have plenty of time to start them before planting date and onions are just so easy to start from seed.

[Elizabeth]

Granex is a good choice for a short day onion from seed. The seeds aren't too hard to find - I just picked some up last week at my local nursery. This year I am starting mine inside under lights and will transplant out since direct seeding at this time of year is tricky. I planted them 6 days ago and they are 1" high already.

[TomNJ]

Generally onions and garlic are planted 4-6" apart in rows, and the rows 10-12" apart. The higher spaces should be used for larger bulbs.

I plant mine 6" apart in rows and 12" between rows, in beds that contain five rows that are 10 feet long. Hence each 4' x 10' bed contains 100 bulbs. I allow at least two feet between beds for room to kneel or walk, so two beds measuring 10' x 10' contain 200 bulbs.

Like you, I use onions and garlic in everything I cook! I have been growing 300 garlic and 150 onions, but find it is too much garlic and not enough onions for the two of us. Next year I will probably reverse the ratio.

TomNJ

[tjg911]

here's what i do. i have 1 bed for garlic and 1 bed for onions. each is 5' wide and 12' long. i plant both 6" on center, so i get about 190 bulbs of each. my onions keep until the next harvest, i get about 60-70 pounds growing copra and red wing both day long onions. candy keeps a long time also and is day neutral. i always start seeds but tom_nj buys plants and based upon our discussions does very well with them. that eliminates starting from seed inside and maintaining them until planting out but to me that's part of the fun.

garlic keeps a long time but not until the next harvest. i grow varieties that may not do well in your location. i have read that creole types do not store for very long. i plant cloves in late october from plants dug in july. a good site for info is http://www.gourmetgarlicgardens.com/ he is in texas so i'd think that's more like your latitude and climate. never bought from him but the website has a lot of info and many garlic varieties to choose from.

tom

[Tracydr]

When do you plan on planting out? I didn't realize you needed to plant so early!
My planting dates are probably sometime in November, so I was thinking about starting seed in September.
Geez, can't believe it's already August. Thank goodness this summer is almost over!

[Tracydr]

You can never have too much garlic! It's like having too much money. If I get too much garlic, I'll just dehydrate it. I would love to have too much garlic sometime!
tj911, I just got my two pounds of Turban and creole garlic from Yong Farms in Southern AZ this week. If I start to lose some, I'll dehydrate it. It's hard to keep garlic in my house because my kitchen temperatures are in the mid to high eighties in the summer time. Really makes canning oh, so enjoyable! We have a high heat warning today ( you know it's hot when AZ has a heat warning!) and I need to pressure can chicken broth, of all things. So, two hours of the stove and pressure canner going full bore. Belch!
Anyway, I'm still looking for a good soft neck garlic, for another pound, plus some onion seed and maybe some onion plants. The only onion plant place that I know about is Dixondale, which I've heard about. Are there any others to compare prices? Our local nurseries never seem to have onion plants and the big box stores carry long day sets in April, which really makes a lot of sense. Then again, they also sell rhubarb plants ( I'm not sure you can even grow that here?) and snap pea plants in June.

[Mike Maurer]

Originally Posted by tjg911

here's what i do. i have 1 bed for garlic and 1 bed for onions. each is 5' wide and 12' long. i plant both 6" on center, so i get about 190 bulbs of each. my onions keep until the next harvest, i get about 60-70 pounds growing copra and red wing both day long onions. candy keeps a long time also and is day neutral. i always start seeds but tom_nj buys plants and based upon our discussions does very well with them. that eliminates starting from seed inside and maintaining them until planting out but to me that's part of the fun.

garlic keeps a long time but not until the next harvest. i grow varieties that may not do well in your location. i have read that creole types do not store for very long. i plant cloves in late october from plants dug in july. a good site for info is http://www.gourmetgarlicgardens.com/ he is in texas so i'd think that's more like your latitude and climate. never bought from him but the website has a lot of info and many garlic varieties to choose from.

tom

Tom, do you use the same bed for garlic each year? I've been planting garlic in the same bed for two years and I have been worried about rotating the garlic but don't really have another good place for it. What has been your experience, or anybody out there that would like to share their experience?
Mike

[tjg911]

mike,

i have a 4 year crop rotation, i'd never plant the same thing or even from the same family in the same place. 4 years is a pretty good break.

traciedr,

dixondale is the only one i have heard of for plants but i am sure there are others. i only bought plants locally but now i start from seeds and that allows you to chose what you want to grow vs what they sell locally. mail order farms will have a good selection. my experience is to stay away from sets. while they are easy to plant they bolt easily, rot easily and don't grow as well. i planted them a couple of years and the results were lousy that's when i started to buy plants locally. the lack of good storage onions prompted me to try seeds and it was very easy to do. your growing season is opposite of new england's. you couldn't grow onions in summer and i couldn't in winter.

tom

[Tracydr]

I've read about Candy being day neutral. Is that reliable, even for southern AZ? I was thinking about trying some, along with some TX Grano and maybe one other short day type. It seems the short day types aren't good storage types, something I've experienced, since the market onions certainly don't store well, at all around here. They probably come from AZ and southern NM/TX.
Id like to start with seeds, since I have lights and plenty of time. Seeds are just so much cheaper and give me lots of flexibility in trying several varieties.
Wondering, is Mesa, AZ too far south to try an Intermediate day? I know that some of the southern Ok and north TX growers grow them sometimes.

[Elizabeth]

I am not familiar with that variety, but here in San Diego we plant short day types in Oct-Dec and if you want to plant a medium day variety it goes in Jan-Feb. I'm not sure if that timing will work for you since you get so much hotter than us, but you can give it a try.

[tjg911]

Originally Posted by Tracydr

I've read about Candy being day neutral. Is that reliable, even for southern AZ? I was thinking about trying some, along with some TX Grano and maybe one other short day type. It seems the short day types aren't good storage types, something I've experienced, since the market onions certainly don't store well, at all around here. They probably come from AZ and southern NM/TX.
Id like to start with seeds, since I have lights and plenty of time. Seeds are just so much cheaper and give me lots of flexibility in trying several varieties.
Wondering, is Mesa, AZ too far south to try an Intermediate day? I know that some of the southern Ok and north TX growers grow them sometimes.

candy is day neutral. that means it does not matter whether you are in the south (day short) or the north (day long), an onion that is day neutral can be grown in either location ie neutral.

typically day short onions are not as good keepers as day long onions but some day long don't keep that long and i suspect there may be some day short that keep longer than some day long but i don't know for sure. you need to look at individual varieties not general labels to know which type they are.

35 degrees north is the line for day length. i just checked and you are at 33.4 north so i'd go with day short or neutral NOT day long tho you are so close i'm not sure how a day long would bulb but i suspect not as well. imo your best bet is a day neutral onion. candy has excellent storage length, not as good as some day long but you can't really grow them there.

tom

[Mike Maurer]

Originally Posted by Tracydr

I've read about Candy being day neutral. Is that reliable, even for southern AZ? I was thinking about trying some, along with some TX Grano and maybe one other short day type. It seems the short day types aren't good storage types, something I've experienced, since the market onions certainly don't store well, at all around here. They probably come from AZ and southern NM/TX.
Id like to start with seeds, since I have lights and plenty of time. Seeds are just so much cheaper and give me lots of flexibility in trying several varieties.
Wondering, is Mesa, AZ too far south to try an Intermediate day? I know that some of the southern Ok and north TX growers grow them sometimes.

Tracydr.
I have had excellent results with Candy onions (and I live near Albuquerque), However I have not grown them from seed just from started plants. I get them from a local nursery however from the info on the boxes it looks like they came from Dixondale. The Candy can get quite large, up to softball size if grown in a favorable place. They also store well for a large day nuetral type, I have had them last up to 4 months but I ran out so I don't know if they would have lasted longer.I usually start them on Valentines Day or at least by the end of February. I also have good luck with a multiplier onion called the Potato Onion. I get them from Southern Exposure Seed Exchange. I plant them the end of November or early December. The idea is to grow enough so you never have to buy pants again. However I haven't gotten that far yet, this is just my 2nd year. They do store well and it is neat to see them poke up out of the ground in very early spring when nothing else (except maybe the garlic) is growing. They are ready for me by the end of June.
Mike