Tell me about your seeds - Page 3

tam91 · June 30, 2015

You do whatever you think is best. But please realize you are arguing with the people who wrote the books on heirloom tomatoes and saving seeds. So it is not a matter of getting your 'right information out'.

seaeagle · June 30, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by tam91

You do whatever you think is best. But please realize you are arguing with the people who wrote the books on heirloom tomatoes and saving seeds. So it is not a matter of getting your 'right information out'.

I am not really not arguing with anyone, and I apologize if it looks that way.All I am saying is;

FACT #1-Tomato seed fermented longer than 3 days have a lower germination rate backed up by university research

Fact #2-Tomato fermentation can be completed in 3 days or less at room temperature or above again backed up by university research

Fact #3-your own post proves that leaving seeds fermenting too long decreases germination

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=17016This

Fact #4-I am done posting for a while

tam91 · July 1, 2015

Wow. You have a different definition of fact than I do.

No, my own post does not show that. The first batch (from that post) fermented a long time also, much longer than 3 days. The second batch had some sort of issue, and did not ferment correctly.

Also, those were supermarket tomatoes, could have been immature seeds, or any number if issues.

Science: Correlation does not imply causation.

Good luck.

AlittleSalt · July 1, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bipetual

That would be really cool of you, Robert. I know when the time comes, I would definitely use it, even though I only have two OP plants right now.

Bipetual, thank you. I already have pictures, but I need to read more on the seed saving topic. I'm basically useless from June 30 through July 4. My wife and I celebrate our July 1 anniversary through July 4. This one happens to be our 30th. We also celebrate July 4 (Independence Day) as our favorite holiday - with hundreds of dollars of fireworks, hotdogs and hamburgers, water fights, and baskets of cherry tomatoes, class B fireworks, and ...

When I do start a tomato seed saving thread - I want as much input as I can get to correct things I may have wrong. I don't believe there is a "One Size Fits All" way of saving tomato seeds, but with everyone's help, I want us all to try to post the best way we can think of.

digsdirt · July 2, 2015

seaeagle - Are you merely linking to various articles you have read or have you actually done any seed saving yourself? If so then what methods do you use specifically? And do your results support any of the "truths" you are supporting?

Have you actually found decreased germination in seeds germinated for longer than 3 days? How much? Personally I never have.

Have you done a comparison of 3 day max and 5 day minimum fermentation and then tested germination rates? I have several times and found them to be the same.

Have you ever traded seeds with others that were not adequately disinfected before trading and had seed-borne diseases develop as a result? Unfortunately I have.

Dave

Worth1 · July 2, 2015

Salt those lime green salad seeds you have weren't fermented.
As a matter of fact I have never fermented a seed but once in my life.

But I do remove the gel coat.

Worth

Cole_Robbie · July 2, 2015

I use Oxy Clean, 1 tbsp per cup of gel & water, 30-40 minutes, then blast them with a kitchen sprayer in a strainer. My germination was 100%, or as close as I could gather to it. I tested six seeds each from eight varieties before swapping my seeds, just to make sure they were ok before swapping them with people.

No one seems to know if Oxy Clean kills disease in seeds. It seems like it would to me.

Another idea I tested was comparing an initial root drench with aerated compost tea to just using water. The ACT seedlings sprouted faster and grew faster. They had four leaves when the other tray of seedlings had two.

AlittleSalt · July 2, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worth1

Salt those lime green salad seeds you have weren't fermented.
As a matter of fact I have never fermented a seed but once in my life.

But I do remove the gel coat.

Worth

However you saved those Lime Green Salad seeds - every one that I planted is up and growing.

seaeagle · July 5, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by digsdirt

seaeagle - Are you merely linking to various articles you have read or have you actually done any seed saving yourself? If so then what methods do you use specifically? And do your results support any of the "truths" you are supporting?

Have you actually found decreased germination in seeds germinated for longer than 3 days? How much? Personally I never have.

Have you done a comparison of 3 day max and 5 day minimum fermentation and then tested germination rates? I have several times and found them to be the same.

Have you ever traded seeds with others that were not adequately disinfected before trading and had seed-borne diseases develop as a result? Unfortunately I have.

Dave

If you had actually read this entire thread, you would know that I save seeds and what method I use.

The "truths" I am supporting are controlled detailed scientific research from some of the finest agricultural University's in the world

Earlier in this thread digsdirt said ; "
But if the goal in fermenting your seeds is to disinfect them as well then longer time is needed and the minimum recommend time is 7 days to allow for sufficient bacteria to build up."

If you ferment your seeds for a minimum of seven days, why are you even doing germination tests for 3 and 5 days

I posted 4 or 5 links to scientific research supporting my positions, you have posted nothing supporting yours.I really would love to see the research that says to ferment tomato seeds a minimum of seven days.Please post it if you can find one.

No, I have never obtained infected seeds in a trade with someone.Any one trading seeds should know there is a risk.And it doesn't mean someone didn't disinfect them properly, maybe the pathogen was inside the seed.A simple seed rinse in bleach for a minute or two before planting may have saved you from diseased plants.

Now I shall leave you with some really good advice from a master gardener in California who has two gardening radio programs on two different stations every week for over 30 years

"A final hint when searching for garden answers on the Internet. Be leery of advice from gardening forums, unless that advice is linked to a study or research that you can also access."

Have a nice day

tam91 · July 5, 2015

I have gotten excellent advice from the actual experts on this forum many times, and will continue to take advice from established members.

Hopefully others will also, and succeed as well.

tam91 · July 5, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaeagle

"A final hint when searching for garden answers on the Internet. Be leery of advice from gardening forums, unless that advice is linked to a study or research that you can also access."

Have a nice day

If that is how you feel, don't want advice here - what do you want?

Worth1 · July 5, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by tam91

If that is how you feel, don't want advice here - what do you want?

I just wont give any advice I just say what I do and be done with it.

I dont have a link to my results people will just have to trust me, and I am trustworthy.

Worth

ginger2778 · July 5, 2015

Worth, I wouldn't trust you as far as I could throw you!

Worth1 · July 5, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by ginger2778

Worth, I wouldn't trust you as far as I could throw you!

Marsha have you ever heard of the stomach throw in Judo.

Don't underestimate how far you can throw someone.
The videos show practice but you can launch someone a long way and they will land on their head.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...MnszmMuTfGq5Lw

I know I did it to my mother when I was 11 years old.

Worth

**carolyn137** · July 5, 2015

Seaeagle, I did not read the 6 links you put up so went back and read all 6 and only ONE had the various sections that belong in a scientific paper giving DATA, and I wasn't too thrilled with the way they did some experiments.

#1, from Africa, the only one with actual data. and knowing from Africa right away you know that what they did would not necessarily pertain to you in VA.

Fermented for 1-4 days at 24 C
Stirred the gunk, that's a no no since in introduces O2 and fermentation is an anaerobic process
Dried the seed for 5 days at 25 C, then dried in a LAB drier for 4 MONThs to get moisture down to 5%, not needed since one dries down seed to 5-8% only if freezing seed.

Placed on filter and watered every 8 hrs? Were filters exposed to the air or bagged. If the latter, a great way to get the abnormal seeds they got.

They say the germination gaph shows all is fine up to 3 days, but only went to 4 days with a 20% drop to 80%, not good enough for me.

#2 TAMU in TX

Pretty useless as I see it, no data given, just anecdotal

#3 Oregon, same as above

#4 LSU, 2-4 days, no DATA as to methodology

#5 SESE in VA, probably near you. in general OK but note that huge batches are being processed since they produce a lot of their own seed. I don't know who wote the article, it wasn't Dr. Jeff McCormack whom I knew well, since he sold it a few years back.

#6 Farmer Fred in CA

I knew I was in trouble ASAP when he said that tomato blossoms are pollinated by BOTH WIND and insects. The reports on possible wind pollination are almost as rare as finding wings on frogs.

He went on to say use a PAPER BAG to cover blossoms and that's a BIG no no, no air can get in and the blossoms rot. Then he said to cover with a lid loosely, and that's a huge nono since it prevents the fungi and bacteria from falling onto the gunk.

He went ahead and said to stir Once or twice a day, and that's a big no no since that introduces O2 and fermentation is an anaerobic process as I wrote in that very long post about fermentation that I wrote for you.

If anyone else here wants to go through those 6 links and read and critique as I have, go to it.

Carolyn

June 30, 2015	#31
tam91 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Crystal Lake IL Posts: 2,484	You do whatever you think is best. But please realize you are arguing with the people who wrote the books on heirloom tomatoes and saving seeds. So it is not a matter of getting your 'right information out'. __________________ Tracy

July 1, 2015	#33
tam91 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Crystal Lake IL Posts: 2,484	Wow. You have a different definition of fact than I do. No, my own post does not show that. The first batch (from that post) fermented a long time also, much longer than 3 days. The second batch had some sort of issue, and did not ferment correctly. Also, those were supermarket tomatoes, could have been immature seeds, or any number if issues. Science: Correlation does not imply causation. Good luck. __________________ Tracy

July 2, 2015	#35
digsdirt Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: No.Central Arkansas - 6b/7a Posts: 179	seaeagle - Are you merely linking to various articles you have read or have you actually done any seed saving yourself? If so then what methods do you use specifically? And do your results support any of the "truths" you are supporting? Have you actually found decreased germination in seeds germinated for longer than 3 days? How much? Personally I never have. Have you done a comparison of 3 day max and 5 day minimum fermentation and then tested germination rates? I have several times and found them to be the same. Have you ever traded seeds with others that were not adequately disinfected before trading and had seed-borne diseases develop as a result? Unfortunately I have. Dave __________________ Dave

July 5, 2015	#40
tam91 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Crystal Lake IL Posts: 2,484	I have gotten excellent advice from the actual experts on this forum many times, and will continue to take advice from established members. Hopefully others will also, and succeed as well. __________________ Tracy

July 5, 2015	#45
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Seaeagle, I did not read the 6 links you put up so went back and read all 6 and only ONE had the various sections that belong in a scientific paper giving DATA, and I wasn't too thrilled with the way they did some experiments. #1, from Africa, the only one with actual data. and knowing from Africa right away you know that what they did would not necessarily pertain to you in VA. Fermented for 1-4 days at 24 C Stirred the gunk, that's a no no since in introduces O2 and fermentation is an anaerobic process Dried the seed for 5 days at 25 C, then dried in a LAB drier for 4 MONThs to get moisture down to 5%, not needed since one dries down seed to 5-8% only if freezing seed. Placed on filter and watered every 8 hrs? Were filters exposed to the air or bagged. If the latter, a great way to get the abnormal seeds they got. They say the germination gaph shows all is fine up to 3 days, but only went to 4 days with a 20% drop to 80%, not good enough for me. #2 TAMU in TX Pretty useless as I see it, no data given, just anecdotal #3 Oregon, same as above #4 LSU, 2-4 days, no DATA as to methodology #5 SESE in VA, probably near you. in general OK but note that huge batches are being processed since they produce a lot of their own seed. I don't know who wote the article, it wasn't Dr. Jeff McCormack whom I knew well, since he sold it a few years back. #6 Farmer Fred in CA I knew I was in trouble ASAP when he said that tomato blossoms are pollinated by BOTH WIND and insects. The reports on possible wind pollination are almost as rare as finding wings on frogs. He went on to say use a PAPER BAG to cover blossoms and that's a BIG no no, no air can get in and the blossoms rot. Then he said to cover with a lid loosely, and that's a huge nono since it prevents the fungi and bacteria from falling onto the gunk. He went ahead and said to stir Once or twice a day, and that's a big no no since that introduces O2 and fermentation is an anaerobic process as I wrote in that very long post about fermentation that I wrote for you. If anyone else here wants to go through those 6 links and read and critique as I have, go to it. Carolyn __________________ Carolyn

July 2, 2015	#36
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	Salt those lime green salad seeds you have weren't fermented. As a matter of fact I have never fermented a seed but once in my life. But I do remove the gel coat. Worth

July 2, 2015	#37
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	I use Oxy Clean, 1 tbsp per cup of gel & water, 30-40 minutes, then blast them with a kitchen sprayer in a strainer. My germination was 100%, or as close as I could gather to it. I tested six seeds each from eight varieties before swapping my seeds, just to make sure they were ok before swapping them with people. No one seems to know if Oxy Clean kills disease in seeds. It seems like it would to me. Another idea I tested was comparing an initial root drench with aerated compost tea to just using water. The ACT seedlings sprouted faster and grew faster. They had four leaves when the other tray of seedlings had two.

July 5, 2015	#43
ginger2778 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Plantation, Florida zone 10 Posts: 9,283	Worth, I wouldn't trust you as far as I could throw you!