How to save seed?

[ZBQ]

Could someone give a newbie a crash course in saving seeds from their tomatoes?

I have a few that I want to save seed from this year so I can grow them again and also so I can share seeds with others to pay forward the kindness extended to me through the wonderful members of this board.

Neil

[feldon30]

1) Start with fully ripened tomatoes, not overly ripe. Preferably save seed from 2 or more tomatoes. Use enough tomatoes to have a good amount of seed and pulp. The actual number will vary depending on the variety.

2) Collect the seeds and some of the surrounding "goop" and put it in a container. If you have an overabundance of tomatoes, you can just cut a tomato in half and squeeze the contents into a cup. I cut the tomato into slices and then carefully spoon the seeds and goop into a cup, leaving intact slices that I can then use on a sandwich. Putting the seeds into clear plastic containers are preferable so you can see the fermentation process.

3) Optionally, 1 tbsp or so of water and swish it around.

4) If you intend to put these containers outside (fermentation is quite stinky!), you may wish to cover with plastic wrap and poke a few holes. Otherwise you will get a lot of insects. Some people don't mind the insects.

5) Clearly label the container with the variety name and perhaps the source of your seeds from the previous year.

6) Place the container outside in the shade or inside in a well ventilated place.

7) After 3-5 days, a moldy film will appear on top.

8) At this point the fermentation process has taken place which separates the gel from the seeds. It is also quite smelly.

9) Uncover the container and add water. Wait a few moments for the viable seeds to sink to the bottom.

10) Pour off the top layer of water and debris. Note: Bad seeds will float, pour them off.

11) Repeat steps 9 and 10 until the water is clear and you have clean seeds at the bottom.

12) Dump seeds out into a strainer and rinse thoroughly.

13) Optional step: If you want to help eradicate any seed borne diseases perform a bleach bath. Mix 5 parts water to 1 part bleach. Put seeds in bleach mix for 3 to 5 minutes. Rinse seeds thoroughly and I do mean thoroughly. Note: Use pure bleach not this modern stuff that has a bunch of other stuff in it.

14) Put the seeds on a plate or similar (I use paper plates) to dry. The drying process can take up to a week. Some seeds will stick together. Separate them.

15) Put the seeds in an old medicine bottle or envelope. Label with the variety and year.

16) Store in a cool dark place.


Some additional notes from Carolyn:

* Three days is sufficient for some folks and not for others.

* How long one lets stuff ferment depends on how thick or thin the container contents are, sometimes some varieties take longer than others, it also very much depends on the ambient temperature.

* I have never had a fermentation be complete in three days. Ever. And in the Fall of the year when I do most of my fermentations I've often had to wait up to 10 days b'c the ambient temperature was so low that the fermentation was drastically slowed down. Enzymes aren't happy at low temperatures.

* It usually takes 5-7 days for me, depending on all the variables I've mentioned.

* I always use clear containers, usually one pint deli containers, so I can see the bubbles that appear due to the active fermentation and I can also see the enzymatic action that tears apart the solids and also see how quickly seeds are dropping to the bottom. Lots of seeds will still be caught up in the debris, so effective multiple vigorous rinses are necessary.

* The first thing one looks for is the development of a fungal mat that covers the surface of the container contents, so that's why I use only clear containers, so I can see beneath that mat to follow what's happening.

[ZBQ]

Many thanks feldon!!


Wonderful people here on this board. Just can't say it enough!!

[travis]

[ZBQ, I'm editing Feldon's response because he covered the process very thoroughly and accurately, and I just want to add a couple of details that only represent my opinion ...]

1) Start with fully ripened tomatoes, not overly ripe. Preferably save seed from 2 or more tomatoes.

Sometimes, I keep the seeds from a particular tomato separate because it came from a plant that showed superior qualities. But I always also keep a mix of seeds from more than one tomato off the same plant, if I only have one plant, or a mix of seeds from tomatoes off of more than one plant of the same variety just to preserve potential genetics.

I may be off base on this, but sometimes I think selection is preferred. So, I also never save seeds from tomato fruits that have any deformity. I know some folks say BER doesn't affect the seed ... maybe not. But I think catfacing, zippers, and double or multiple fused blossoms producing deformed fruit is all genetic and I never save seeds from those types of deformities.

2) Collect the seeds and some of the surrounding "goop" and put it in a container. If you have an overabundance of tomatoes, you can just cut a tomato in half and squeeze the contents into a cup. I cut the tomato into slices and then carefully spoon the seeds and goop into a cup, leaving intact slices that I can then use on a sandwich. Putting the seeds into clear plastic containers are preferable so you can see the fermentation process.

I do just as Feldon has described depending on whether I want to use the deseeded fruit for fresh eating, or just simply cut the fruit in half, squeeze out the seeds and use the resulting discarded fruit for cooking ... which is seldom in my case.

However ... a cautionary note here ... when you scoop out the seeds with a spoon you should ALWAYS check your spoon before moving on to another variety. In fact, inbetween extracting seeds from a group of tomato varieties, I always thoroughly rinse everything ... cutting board, knife, spoon, whatever, and wipe everything down with a sponge, clean the sponge of seeds (don't take the seeds off the sponge ... they may be mixed from previous clean-ups), and check under my fingernails, etc.

3) Optionally, 1 tbsp or so of water and swish it around.

You frequently will have to add water especially for paste varieties and other dense fleshed tomatoes. Sometimes, too much water will slow the fermentation. And chlorinated water takes a little more time to start fermenting ... so you may want to use bottled water.

5) Clearly label the container with the variety name and perhaps the source of your seeds from the previous year.

I always use 8 - 12 ounce plastic cups and ALWAYS label the cup BEFORE you squeeze or otherwise put the seed pulp into the cup ... ALWAYS. Don't wait ... you may get interupted and forget what you were working on. For markin' the cups I use wide masking tape and a ball point or Sharpie pen. I guess you could write right on the cup with a Sharpie, but I reuse some of the cups sometimes (after THOROUGHLY washing them to remove any stuck on seeds) and the masking tape can be put right over the previous label.

Something else I do is to take a fork and mash up the pulp that holds the seeds ... you know ... sometimes the tomato has that white hard membrane inside the seed cells ... and later, if the fermentation is not quite far along enough, but you have already started washing the seeds as in the next set of instructions, you'll find that a good amount of seed may still be clinging to the partially fermented pulp and will float out with the waste.

So, if you mash that stuff up with a fork against the sides of the cup, it will ferment quicker and more thoroughly and you won't lose any seeds in the rinse (except the bad ones that float out and you want them to float out with the waste). WASH THE FORK before using it on the next variety.

9) Uncover the container and add water. Wait a few moments for the viable seeds to sink to the bottom.

Okay, here is where I differ with Feldon. I used to do it the way he describes ... in the cup. But I found that if you dump the contents of the cup into a large deep mixing bowl and run a bunch of water into the bowl to almost fill it to the brim, the seeds will swirl around in a whirlpool and settle to the bottom of the mixing bowl and the pulp with float out a lot easier without losing any seed.

Maybe I'm fermenting more seed at once, but this works really well for me. The first bowl full of water is very murky and stinky and you should let it settle for a minute so the seeds get together in the bottom. Then tip out the water slowly 'til you can see the seeds in the bottom. Don't decant all the water the first time.

Refill the bowl by running the water kinda down the side of the bowl ... oh, by the way ... I'm doing this in the kitchen sink and into the garbage disposal ... anyway, run the water into the bowl so it makes a whirlpool and spins the seeds around so they settle to the bottom in a cluster. Decant the waste again. Keep doing this until the seeds look nice and clean. Gently tip the last of the water out slowly slowly until the seeds rest in a clump on the side of the bowl. Then rake them onto your paper plate.

12) Dump seeds out into a strainer and rinse thoroughly.

I skip this step because I usually don't need to rinse the seeds any further and because seeds tend to cling to the strainer and can possible result in a stray seed from one variety getting mixed into a subsequent batch from another variety. Besides, you have to "knock" the seeds outta the strainer and onto a plate and that's just another step that can cause stray seeds to fly about.

14) Put the seeds on a plate or similar (I use paper plates) to dry. The drying process can take up to a week. Some seeds will stick together. Separate them.

Again, mark the plate BEFORE you put the seeds onto it. I think this is important because you can always get distracted by the phone, the TV, your spouse (who usually can find a million things you should be doing besides fiddlin' around with tomato seeds), etc.

If you have the marked fermentation cup up on the counter and use a rinsing bowl, you can always refer back to the cup to remind you which variety you're workin' with. I always do this step by step and throw away, or invert (if I'm recycling) the cup after I mark the paper plate with the variety name. That way if I'm interupted, I always have something to refer back to so I know which variety is where in the process.

Also, I've already edited out where Feldon says about drying, storage, etc., but here are some observations from my point of veiw ...

Pre-dry your seeds a while on the paper plates spread out in a warm place BEFORE stacking the paper plates one on top of the other to dry for a week or two ... WHY???

Because if you're doin' a bunch of seed and you stack the paper plates while the seed is still freshly rinsed and wet on the paper plate, the seeds will stick to the bottom of the plate set on top of them in the stack ... INVARIABLY.

Then later, when you take a notion to look for one particular seed type, you'll invariably restack the stack of paper plates in a different order and the seed stuck to the bottom of the plates will then be resting on a different variety than that from which it came. Trust me here.

And be very very careful when you do stack plates and undstack plates later to move the seed into storage containers.

Anyway, Feldon's information is all good ... I just wanted to add my 2 cents from recent experiences.

PV

Oh yeah ... and NEVER sniff the bottoms of the fermentation cups ... WHEW :wink:

[nctomatoman]

PV, just to work out a point you made re tomato genetics. Unless a flower has been crossed, all seeds from all fruit on a particular plant are the same. If a fruit has BER or a Zipper mark or catfacing, it is the conditions at the time the fruit is forming. There is absolutely nothing wrong or different with the seeds in a less than perfect fruit. If this were the case, then improving tomatoes would be pretty easy. Livingston, who discovered that fruit selection did not work (for the reason I gave above), discovered that plant selections were the way to go (saving and keeping separate seed from fruit from a plant that had particularly different characteristics).

[travis]

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

PV, just to work out a point you made re tomato genetics. Unless a flower has been crossed, all seeds from all fruit on a particular plant are the same. If a fruit has BER or a Zipper mark or catfacing, it is the conditions at the time the fruit is forming. There is absolutely nothing wrong or different with the seeds in a less than perfect fruit. If this were the case, then improving tomatoes would be pretty easy. Livingston, who discovered that fruit selection did not work (for the reason I gave above), discovered that plant selections were the way to go (saving and keeping separate seed from fruit from a plant that had particularly different characteristics).

Craig,

Yes, I'm aware of those "facts." I've read the literature regarding Livingston's observations that plant selection was more operable than fruit selection to develop superior plants.

However, I still think that a BER fruit was deprived of calcium during development and prefer not to save seed from such a fruit ... even if I could be shown that such calcium deprived fruit held seed that was fully nourished during its development (was it?).

And with regard to zippers and catfacing, which I see as just radical multiple zippering, I think it's a manifestation of a shortcoming locked in the genes. Whether it's locked in the genes of that particular blossom or in the genes of the entire plant ... well, you probably know more about it than I ... but I still prefer not to save the seeds from fruit that has shown a clear genetic defect.

Just my way, I guess.

Then there are folks who only save seed from Crown Fruit ...

PV

[nctomatoman]

Just people do something doesn't necessarily mean it is right! Your use of quotes around the word fact is curious. Then again, I suspect that you are the type that is not particularly swayed by data and facts. It is not that Livingston's way was more "operable" - it was that it worked, and fruit selections did not! Is stubborn an appropriate adjective?

[travis]

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

Just (because) people do something doesn't necessarily mean it is right! Your use of quotes around the word fact is curious. Then again, I suspect that you are the type that is not particularly swayed by data and facts. It is not that Livingston's way was more "operable" - it was that it worked, and fruit selections did not! Is stubborn an appropriate adjective?

Craig,

As I said at first, all of what I do is just my own way of doing things and not necessarily a total rejection of your or other folks' processes which I'm sure are based in scientific deduction. Also as I said, you're probably right.

Your use of the work "appropriate" in you final question is not lost on me, although I doubt others remember that now erased thread. What's curious to me is your quickness to apply rather judgmental adjectives or monikers to those whom you seem to perceive as resistant to your authoritative knowledge. However that is not what I intended by my statements in the above posts ... only to point out that that's the way I do it and not necessarily something carved in stone by those more expert than I ... and I hope you're capable of overlooking my curious, suspect, and stubborn ways.

ZBQ, please ignore my suggestions about saving seed from well formed fruit as it apparently has no basis in proven theory.

PV

[nctomatoman]

PV, it is not that I want to exude authoritative knowledge! However, I do highly value knowledge...I read extensively and try to always expand and improve on what I learn, and also love sharing it with people. Those of us here who are experienced are teaching many, many people here, and although much in gardening is intuition and individual experience, when there is a factual basis, it is important to be consistent and be respectful of the information. That's all....this is not the first time you and I have butted heads. Probably won't be the last - that's fine with me. It's a big world!

[michael johnson]

Hmmm' very interesting reading- from top to bottom of the post, its nice to see differing points of view on the subject of seed saving etc.

The only thing I would like to add to all this is- be very carefull where you point the seed jet when squeezing out tomato seeds from a partialy cut tomato, especialy with cherry tomatoes.

Many is the time that I have squeezed and not aimed correctly, and the jet of seeds shot out and plastered my trousers leg, the sides of the kitchen sink, arms and hands etc, a steady squeeze to start them off is best.

Squeezing them out is probably the quickest method of removing the seeds, but these days I cut the tomato into quarters and then with a sharp knife cut round each quarter segment about one third depth under the skin, which then peels back and reveals all the seeds, and then with a few swift movements of the knife point- winkle them out into a container.


It would be very interesting if someone could provide a detailed report on how they do it commercialy from these big tomato seed producers, who provide seed to the horticultural and agricultural trade in Spain, Italy, USA, Holland etc, just as a matter of interest and see how they compare-with our smaller production methods, and see if we can adapt some of them for our own use a bit.

But try as I might -and lots of googling etc, I cant seem to discover much info on the net about it,- perhaps I am using the wrong key words and search words to find the info.

[Polar_Lace]

Hello again Mike,

This link is a PDF, it should download into Adobe Acrobat when you click on the link. The title is: "Tomato Seed Production" - scroll down to page # 7... Traditionally, most seed saving guides indicate that tomatoes are ... When tomato seed is processed on a large commercial scale, the seed is washed in a ... http://www.savingourseed.org/pdf/Tom...onVer_2pt6.pdf

This is another PDF "Saving Tomato Seeds" http://www.mastergardeners.org/event...mato_Seeds.pdf

Follow this link for: commercial tomato seed saving, via google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

[geol]

This guy has an extraction machine-http://www.avrdc.org/LC/tomato/hybrid/14extmech.html

[carolyn137]

I think it's good to remember that there is no one way to save seeds.

Tomato seeds have been fermented in many ways starting back in the 1800's.

So my advice to newbies is to practice using info you garner from more than one place and more than one person.

Feldon quoted me above in his post, quite accurately, and those are additional tips that I give to folks b'c temps vary, the consistency of fermentation mixes vary and only by experience does one come up with methods that work for any one individual in any one situation.

I could drag my own article I wrote on Seed Saving over here from my faves at AOL, but all that would do is to add yet another way of doing things.

I do suggest, though, that when it's time to get the seeds out of the fermented mix that one uses a pistol grip handle on the hose. I spritz the mix, oh, after taking off the fungal mat by hand and scraping any adhering seeds into the mix, b'c the forceful spritzing breaks up a lot a seeds clinging to debris.

So I spritz, swirl, decant, respritz, swirl, decant, until the water above the seeds is perfectly clear.

As for fruits to select for seeds, I never use fruits off just one plant unless I'm forced to. The recommendations are to have 8 plants and take fruits from the inner four, but no home grower, or few, would have 8 plants of a single variety out there.

I do a minimum of two plants per variety and sometimes more if I need more seeds.

And all of this should be in the past tense b'c since I fell I can't do this stuff any more.

As was mentioned above, it's good to preserve as much biological diversity that's found WITHIN a variety by taking fruits from different plants. And if you plant out multiple plants for a given variety you'll see some minor differences in internode length, time of ripeness and other traits that Keith and I have talked about before and he's better at noting those small differences than I ever would be.

I like to use fruits of different size for a variety and I prefer to have them unblemished. I won't use any fruits that have initiated rotting of any kind.

I will use fruits that are catfaced or have sunscald b'c those defects are environmentally induced from everything that I've read. Same for those with green shoulders b'c they don't have the uniform ripening gene.

PV, you spoke above about stiching and the like, but I don't think I've ever read about that as being genetically associated. That doesn't mean it isn't, but it also doesn't mean it is. Especially with Lillian's Yellow Heirloom that has so few seeds I have no choice b'c those fruits almost always have stiching and perhaps it is a trait of that vareity, for instance.

But then I'd have to go back and review which varieties do or don't have stiching and is it constant, or not. etc.

I do know that the expression of some genetic traits can be altered by environmental influences so that sometimes you see them and sometimes you don't. A good case in point is the variety Jaune Negib, which when I got it from France had the most beautiful scalloped shoulders, and did so for a few years, then when I went to grow it for photography for my book, it was a smooth yellow fruit, with NO scalloping at all, and seeds used were from scalloped fruits.

Some varieties will form wee points at the blossom end, when they shouldn't have them, and some varieties will form fruits that have a bit of a heart shape to them, and they shouldn't. And all this presumably due to enviornmental induction, since saving seeds from fruits that have points and shouldn't have them does not usually give rise to fruits that have them the next growout.

So it's a complex area and with few exceptions what is genetic and always expressed as opposed to not always expressed and what is not genetic, as regards minor traits, is not always known.

[feldon30]

This just makes clear why I clash so often on garden forums.

The "well there are many different ways to do it, but..." drives me bonkers.

I have to pick a way and do that until I find a flaw and then alter it. Am I too young to get set in my ways on any one thing?

[travis]

"PV, you spoke above about stiching and the like, but I don't think I've ever read about that as being genetically associated. That doesn't mean it isn't, but it also doesn't mean it is. Especially with Lillian's Yellow Heirloom that has so few seeds I have no choice b'c those fruits almost always have stiching and perhaps it is a trait of that vareity, for instance." [Carolyn]

Carolyn,

I know I'm not expressing myself completely or correctly on this issue, and that's why others are addressing it with corrections or different points of view.

What I'm trying to say is that I think (and alway qualify that with "don't believe everything you think") that zippers, stitching, and catfacing are all environmentally triggered expressions of genetic coding ... and someone else can please put that into scientific perspective because that's the best I can do.

But what I feel is that that genetic coding is in the plant but is only expressed in some of the fruit in most cases and probably as a result of an environmentally triggered response like temperature, etc., at the time of blossom set. For example, zippers or stitching appears to be pieces of anther or whatever dragging down the sides of the ovary. Catfacing appears (at least to me) to be a radical expression of zippering or the incomplete fertilization of segments of the ovary ... whatever ... whether induced by temps or triggered by some other environmental/weather condition, herbicide drift ... whatever.

In any case, I think (not necessarily believe) that these expressions are more prevalent in some varieties than in others because the genetic coding is preserved in those varieties while it has been either selected out, accidentally disposed of (read "evolved" out), or simply overcome ... masked ... whatever, by other genetic strengths in other varieties. About this whole process I know very little other than thinking (not believing) that it may have less to do with fate and more to do with ... nevermind ... that's taking it somewhere else.

Anyway, I see no reason other than economy to save seed from less than near perfect fruit ... with the qualifier I left out before ... that those fruit are taken from the best example of plant that I have at my disposal. For example, I have two Amish Paste but am only saving seed from the best fruit off the best plant of the two. Same with the two best Indian Stripe plants and the two best Yellow Sports of you-know-what.

But like I said, this is just my way and not a proven theory ... and I'm no longer suggesting other folks do it ... "x" that part out of my previous post ... zip ... nada ... pretent it ain't there folks.

But I still wonder why if every seed in every fruit on the same plant supposedly will produce identical plants/fruits in the next OP generation, then why do we see occasionally diverse results in large grow-outs of seeds selected single plants? Can that all be chalked off to bees or spontaneous mutations?

PV