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Old November 4, 2018   #16
seaeagle
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I believe people have the right to know the risks associated with any chemical they use or are thinking about using. That's all. I don't think anyone would or should be opposed to that.


Did I expect the reaction from persons using the chemical to be any different than what I have seen. Absolutely not.


Example


In 1964 the Surgeon General said tobacco was harmful to your health. Did everyone stop smoking. No they did not. Most took the attitude "What do they know, I feel fine" or were addicted and couldn't stop.


Did it keep a lot of people from starting smoking who would have if that warning had not come out? Absolutely


Maybe this thread is aimed at those who are thinking about using it and maybe they can make a better choice. And certainly this thread or any of my opinions were not directed at any one person in particular.
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Old December 24, 2018   #17
beetkvass
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Ugh, this is depressing. i only just learned about this this week. My garden has developed serious disease issues. So for me I need 'chemicals" to really be able to continue growing. It's so depressing to work so hard to grow things and then just have them die in front of you. Gardening also saves us a ton of money on food.

But I have small children and I really don't want to expose them to any unnecessary risk either. :/ I have avidly avoided non organic methods for decades primarily for health reasons. But it's just not working anymore. And it's not like my options are just give up gardening, something I love more than just about anything else and buy organic food. I can't afford to only buy organic food. So if I don't grow it I'm just buying what someone else sprayed.
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Old December 24, 2018   #18
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At least if you are doing your own spraying, you will know how much has been applied and you can possibly avoid spraying the fruits.

If I lived in the south and had a lot of foliage disease present I would use as little spray as I could get away with and grow hybrids that are disease resistant.

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
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Old December 24, 2018   #19
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If you are all so freaked out use copper soap.
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Old December 24, 2018   #20
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Many of the so called ag workers that seem to have a higher level of what ever was spoken of are under paid migrant workers.
They dont get the tools they need or education they need to protect themselves.
Nor do they care they just want to make a living.'

The same happens at places I work.
The people in charge are all about hard hats safety glasses and ladder safety. But couldn't care less about hearing protection and other things that can creep up later in life.

When I see the latter going on I take it upon myself to find someone that speaks Spanish to explain to them what will happen if they keep doing it in a way they can understand and hit home.

Things like, tell him when he is 50 he wont be able to understand what his grandchildren are saying.
In almost every situation I see the guys rounding up ear protection and thanking me.
You see I care about people not insurance rates and OSHA numbers.

Those guys will go into the fields and spray whatever and move on to another farm.
No one cares they are someone else's problem I know I have worked the fields too.

You see when you buy organic you aren't really helping protect yourself or your family as much as you are also protecting people and family you will never see.

As far as the chemical in the discussion I have it and will use it if need be but most of the time I dont.
My choice, my food , my home, my liberty.
If I give anything away I tell the people what I use and what it is.



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Old December 24, 2018   #21
beetkvass
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It's not about not caring about the safety of others at all! I'd love to be able to afford to buy all organic. I simply can't though. We've done much to support local farmers over the years. Buying milk, meat, eggs and produce as we can for a good 18 years. But we need SO much food to feed our family size it's just not possible. :/

I've also tried copper spray and wasn't too successful though it's possible we just sprayed too late.
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Old December 24, 2018   #22
Worth1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beetkvass View Post
It's not about not caring about the safety of others at all! I'd love to be able to afford to buy all organic. I simply can't though. We've done much to support local farmers over the years. Buying milk, meat, eggs and produce as we can for a good 18 years. But we need SO much food to feed our family size it's just not possible. :/

I've also tried copper spray and wasn't too successful though it's possible we just sprayed too late.
Didn't say that, I cant afford Whole Foods organic either.
No one as in me is accusing anyone here of not caring for others in the long run.
Not unless they are Monsanto.

I have just seen so much in my life where companies dont care about chronic illness just acute illness.
They will put on a show up front but out back I still remember the guys eating sandwiches next to the nasty toxic waste trucks without washing with one glove off.
Still see the migrant workers working in a fog of roundup and insecticide.
Those framers didn't care they knew the guys would move on to some place else.
I was 28 and starving and poor and I worked right along with them sucking up that crap.
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Old December 24, 2018   #23
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Fungicides are not that difficult to come up with yourself. Bleach and peroxide can work. There are other ideas like a milk spray, which I believe changes the ph on the leaf surface.

Pesticides are much harder to find in a form that is not toxic to humans. Pyrethrins get organic approval, but are still dangerous to ag workers. I know the spray stings when the wind blows it back at me.

For people worried about chemicals sprayed on your food, you don't want to touch flowers. Non food crops are approved for the most toxic of sprays. Systemic pesticides like the neonics commonly used on mums are systemic within the plant. There is no washing it off. I am going to give up on growing fall flowers in my greenhouse, because I don't like being exposed to all the pesticides that are required. Gardening isn't fun when I have to dress up in a chemical hazard suit.
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Old December 24, 2018   #24
bower
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beetkvass, there are some resistant tomatoes for Georgia listed here:
http://extension.uga.edu/publication...own%20Tomatoes


If what you're doing isn't working, all I can say is keep changing it up until you find what does work. Rotations, cover crop mulch (plant fall rye then cut/kill it early spring and plant tomatoes into it), better nutrition, better spacing, pruning and/or support.. I manage my tomatoes mainly with sanitation practices, and nothing reduces maintenance like thinning the number of plants and leaving lots of space between. Maybe grow somewhat fewer tomatoes for a year or two if disease buildup seems to be the problem.



For sure it is a good time to be growing organically, because there is a lot of effort to make it work at a farm scale now, and solutions to those problems are being developed and shared. I know Georgia climate has special challenges but you have lots of organic farms now; those people may be able to give you the best advice, how to manage disease and avoid using sprays if you want to.
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Old January 4, 2019   #25
beetkvass
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Thanks for the input and suggestions. I think I'm going to definitely try grafting tomatoes with disease resistant root stock this year. I was also planning on finally getting some actual soil testing done to see if I can improve plant health that way instead of just assuming composted manure is enough to help. I'd also like to try cover cropping.

Part of our problem is limited land. We live in a hilly mountainous area. While we have an acre only parts of it are usable and we've had to fence in the garden area to keep out deer or just give up gardening. The population just keeps getting bigger and bigger each year. If I had more land that was level enough with adequate sun exposure I could just rotate more. In the end I didn't grow any tomatoes last year. I started some but never planted them so maybe that will help.
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Old January 5, 2019   #26
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I've had an applicators license for many years and can purchase most restricted use pesticides. After 50 plus years of growing food, never has a store bought chemical touched a plant I've grown. We are what we eat and this is how I garden.
But, after many decades of eating commercial production, I'm sure my chemical intake measures in the hundreds of pounds. Still kickin and still growing.
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Old January 6, 2019   #27
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beetkvass, for various reasons I have had to resort to growing the tomatoes in big buckets while the rest of the veg is down in the garden. For years I've gone through a lot of different tomato varieties, all with the most resistance letters behinds their names that I could find to deal with Georgia heat and humidity (Augusta area). They always funked up.

Three years ago I finally found a spray called Serenade. It's organic stuff and approved by the organics councils and works pretty well when applied on a regular basis and also after a rain. The concentrate is much more cost effective than the ready-to-use. About $19-20 for 32 oz which makes a lot of spray. Used to be hard to find but much easier now.

\\https://www.gardeners.com/buy/serena...rol/20089.html

However, as we all know, tomatoes do not live by spray alone so good nutrition, regular watering and attention are a part of the mix. Last summer I finally had success with testing two varieties without a string of resistance letters, Homestead and Creole ,so this year I'm trying a few more. Still growing the Celebrity, Better Boy and Juliet, though.
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Old March 21, 2019   #28
Scooty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seaeagle View Post
I believe people have the right to know the risks associated with any chemical they use or are thinking about using. That's all. I don't think anyone would or should be opposed to that.
Did I expect the reaction from persons using the chemical to be any different than what I have seen. Absolutely not
Example
In 1964 the Surgeon General said tobacco was harmful to your health. Did everyone stop smoking. No they did not. Most took the attitude "What do they know, I feel fine" or were addicted and couldn't stop.
Did it keep a lot of people from starting smoking who would have if that warning had not come out? Absolutely
Maybe this thread is aimed at those who are thinking about using it and maybe they can make a better choice. And certainly this thread or any of my opinions were not directed at any one person in particular.
But the problem is that you're automatically assuming the alternatives are better. They are not necessarily. Research into the long term effects of organic pesticides is not mature. Furthermore, if you've actually tried to go full certified organic production in any capacity, then you also know there's no hard concentration limitation for residues.

As my o-chem professor said, it's not the chemical that kills you. It's the concentration.

In fact, the home gardener is often going to exceed the recommendation spray schedule, dosage, etc... when limited to organic products. Try an only copper only schedule with early blight, and you'll quickly rip your hair out sticking to the "recommended" spray schedule.

I'd point out, we have well founded solid data on the limits for human health for heavy metals. If you're aggressively spraying with organic, it's not necessary better than the safe limited dosages for a synthetic product. I think there are a few academic papers out right now on copper run off from organic production negatively effecting organisms.

Hell, Rotenone is still OMRI compliant. Not sure how much of that you're willing to suck in.

The only way in which you really can completely guarantee safety is if you're willing to toss all the pesticides and fungicides. Most organic farmers try to resort to chemicals of any kind as a last resort.

The problem is that non-organic generally enjoy larger yields than their organic counterparts because most of their spraying is doing proactively as a preventative measure.

If organic was easy, the resultant fruit would be cheap and plentiful. There is a reason it's more expensive and in limited supply.

Most people are willing to accept the safe limit of synthetic solutions for the guarantee of a yield. The problems occur when people start dialing up the dosage thinking they will get a better result.

Sometimes it's a pick your poison. Pyrethrin functions basically as a neurotoxin if you have a cat, it also kills fish if you have a pond run off. Which is probably why is only used on dogs and humans (shampoos, sprays, and cream). Pyrethrin and permethrin (synthetic version) are also safe for earthworms/red wrigglers. On the other hand, spinosad is safe for cats and fish, but it has a much longer half-life and is still toxic to bees. How much it affects honey bees is a matter of debate but in the EU there are very restrictive to its application just to be safe.

Last edited by Scooty; March 21, 2019 at 04:41 PM.
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Old March 21, 2019   #29
seaeagle
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I actually do not use any chemicals on any of my plants and never have. But if I did I would use Copper over Chlorothanil. Do I think Copper is safer. Yes


There are documented cases in Canada of pet dogs losing their life in direct contact with the application of Chlorothanil.
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Old March 22, 2019   #30
b54red
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoDawgs View Post
beetkvass, for various reasons I have had to resort to growing the tomatoes in big buckets while the rest of the veg is down in the garden. For years I've gone through a lot of different tomato varieties, all with the most resistance letters behinds their names that I could find to deal with Georgia heat and humidity (Augusta area). They always funked up.

Three years ago I finally found a spray called Serenade. It's organic stuff and approved by the organics councils and works pretty well when applied on a regular basis and also after a rain. The concentrate is much more cost effective than the ready-to-use. About $19-20 for 32 oz which makes a lot of spray. Used to be hard to find but much easier now.

\\https://www.gardeners.com/buy/serena...rol/20089.html

However, as we all know, tomatoes do not live by spray alone so good nutrition, regular watering and attention are a part of the mix. Last summer I finally had success with testing two varieties without a string of resistance letters, Homestead and Creole ,so this year I'm trying a few more. Still growing the Celebrity, Better Boy and Juliet, though.
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