Am I doomed to a puny crop this year? Potting soil issue

cythaenopsis · July 9, 2013

When I learned about SWC's, I was stoked because now I could grow fruit/vegetable producing plants in a confined space. I've always wanted to grow my own tomatoes so I read up a little bit on-line, went to Lowes to get my supplies, then picked up a couple of seedlings at a local nursery.

After about a month, I started reading up on-line to increase my education. That's when I began to discover I'd done a few things right, but one major thing wrong: the potting medium.

I see now that a potting mix coupled with stuff like peat moss and perlite is the best way to go with growing healthy and abundant tomatoes. But I made the mistake of using all out top soil. I did mix it with some fertilizer and I made sure to churn it up well so that it wasn't hard packed. It was claimed to be rich with nutrients, superior to potting soil.

Well after 10 weeks I do have actively growing tomato plants that are basically healthy. One is producing 5 tomatoes right now, but the other languished with just one early tomato (although it appears that about 3-4 more blossoms have finally set).

Am I doomed to an anemic crop this year? Or is there something I can do to compensate for the semi-inappropriate potting medium I've chosen? Will a plant food geared for tomato plants be worthwhile to add or should I just concede that these plants won't be abundant producers?

Here's what they look like at the moment:

Black Krim planted in 3rd week of May as a 10" seedling.

Lemon Boy planted in 3rd week of May as an 8" seedling.

NarnianGarden · July 9, 2013

Hmm, at least you have some juicy-looking tomatoes forming... My Black Krimeans are also growing in various containers (clay pots and even cardboard boxes) and depending on their location, are either short and sturdy, or tall and leafy... are all pushing flowers. They are larger than your plants, but have only very small 'tomato babies' - the heat has taken its toll...

Have you tried some chicken poop and/or seaweed? Fertlizing is important, especially as you already have fruits, but overdoing it won't help, either.

cythaenopsis · July 9, 2013

Thanks for your reply, Narnian. Wow, you're growing some in cardboard boxes?? I hadn't heard of doing that before. Do you provide some reinforcement to keep it from sagging when it gets wet?

I've been browsing around a bit more and noting tomato plant foliage. I had used a high nitrogen fertilizer by mistake in the beginning and then backed off, for fear of the nitrogen level getting too high. But given how my plants are growing now compared to what I've seen on-line it looks like they're a little nitrogen starved. I imagine chicken poop and seaweed are good sources of it. I don't have easy access to those, but I'll try some alternatives.

We have had some very hot and humid days here, pushing into the low and mid 90F/32C range. I tied on a white plastic bag to help provide a little shade on the blossoms so they would have a slightly better chance of surviving, which looks like it may have helped.

Anyway, I was using some liquid fertilizer I had on hand which is 2-1-2, but I think I'll go out and get some fertilizer geared specifically for tomatoes and give that a shot. As for the soil, I'd been reading that the main concern is aeration, that typical soil will be much denser than potting mix and so the tomato roots won't breathe as well. I forgot to mention that my pots are the SWC type. When I dig my index finger into the soil, it feels moist but not soggy. I do some watering from above near the main stem when there are several days of no rain, so that there's some moisture and nutrient movement from the top down to the roots. But I think I'll do most of my watering from the bottom reservoir from now on.

NarnianGarden · July 9, 2013

The reason for cardboard boxes was simply lack of containers - all were already taken! Plastic, clay, whatever - still there were some healthy seedlings, and my mom could find no other solution.
Crafty woman she is, she had an idea that she simply would put an empty soil bag in the box, and fill it with soil / compost. That probably isn't doctrinally or politically correct, but the plant is thriving. It doesn't have lots of space for roots, but the little it has, seems to be enough for vigorous growth and lots of flowers.

If I was to recommend that method to someone contemplating it, I'd advice them to add some pebbles in the bottom and make irrigation holes in the bag. Either way, the plant just suck up all water, and is in constant demand. That is NOT the perfect solution for someone who would like to take a two-week vacation in the middle of growing season!

cythaenopsis · July 9, 2013

Ah, I got you. Actually, it makes some sense. A large plastic soil bag with holes in the bottom could definitely do the trick. And after packing with the potting medium, run some cord around the box perimeter to give it some support.

I have a seedling that I produced from a sucker and it's just about ready to be potted in a larger container. Of course it's rather late in the season, so there probably won't be much fruit producing opportunities for it. But it's definitely growing fast and who knows, if I can get at least a handful of fruit from it before the season ends then it was probably worth doing. Or I may just give it to a neighbor to have a go at it, who doesn't have many tomato plants this year.

efisakov · July 9, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by cythaenopsis

When I learned about SWC's, I was stoked because now I could grow fruit/vegetable producing

Well after 10 weeks I do have actively growing tomato plants that are basically healthy. One is producing 5 tomatoes right now, but the other languished with just one early tomato (although it appears that about 3-4 more blossoms have finally set).

Am I doomed to an anemic crop this year? Or is there something I can do to compensate for the semi-inappropriate potting medium I've chosen? Will a plant food geared for tomato plants be worthwhile to add or should I just concede that these plants won't be abundant producers?

Hello cythaenopsis, I am looking at the tomatoes in comparison to the plant size, they look just fine.
btw the plant that has one tomato is a beef type and they grow big, easily 10 oz or more.

cythaenopsis · July 10, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by efisakov

Hello cythaenopsis, I am looking at the tomatoes in comparison to the plant size, they look just fine.
btw the plant that has one tomato is a beef type and they grow big, easily 10 oz or more.

Thanks for your observations, Ella. Since this is my first year for tomato growing, I may be obsessing a bit... I keep thinking that a solid 6 weeks is necessary from first fruit appearance to ripened tomato, and so time is beginning to run out--need to get fruits going now in order to enjoy them by the end of August. Anyway, there's only so much you can read up on tomato growing; doing it is probably the best teacher, and so next time around I should do better.

And yes you're right -- the lone tomato is a Black Krim heirloom.

zipcode · July 10, 2013

They seem to be doing pretty well. Probably overall production won't be as good as with a proper mix, but I think it will be fine.
Would help to fluff the soil every month or so, without damaging the roots if possible. It will compact after a certain amount of time.
I also have some soil in containers, mixed with sand, it's not a terrible mix at all for top watering, but for self watering, the more air the better.

cythaenopsis · July 10, 2013

^ In doing some light digging, I came across some surface roots that broke away, so I'm a bit leery of turning the soil much. A friend had recommended using a gardening hand rake, about the size of a spade but with spikes. I may give that a go and just gently puncture some holes into the soil for aeration.

I am trying to do watering on both ends--mostly container filling but also some periodic water from above during long stretches between rainy days (we had a deluge about 9 days ago but hardly any rain since). I also re-read the packaging for the topsoil which said it has fertilizer and peat moss mixed in... so it seems like the mistake wasn't too bad.

Anyway, my fertilizing effort being a little too light resulted in a rather small first tomato. It's a Black Krim and not even as large as a tennis ball! But I'm hopeful the ones to come will be larger.

efisakov · July 10, 2013

Container plants tend to be on a smaller side. Yours look like 7 gallons or so. For the beefsteak tomato is better to use at least 10 gallon container. We learn from each year experience. Fish emulsion is used by many as a fertilizer. I just put some fish and shrimp scales close to the bottom of container. You will find what will work for you. Give it a time. Just enjoy for now your first tomato. Black Krim is very tasty tomato. It is so good you would not even need to salt it.

Ms. Jitomate · July 10, 2013

"Crafty woman she is, she had an idea that she simply would put an empty soil bag in the box, and fill it with soil / compost. That probably isn't doctrinally or politically correct, but the plant is thriving. It doesn't have lots of space for roots, but the little it has, seems to be enough for vigorous growth and lots of flowers."

An author named Barbara Pleasant, calls it Easy-Care Grow Bag, in her Starter Vegetable Garden book. She doesn't even remove the bag until the season is over. And this link shows an actual picture.
http://www.houselogic.com/blog/garde...den-in-a-bag/#.

cythaenopsis · July 11, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by efisakov

Container plants tend to be on a smaller side. Yours look like 7 gallons or so. For the beefsteak tomato is better to use at least 10 gallon container. We learn from each year experience. Fish emulsion is used by many as a fertilizer. I just put some fish and shrimp scales close to the bottom of container. You will find what will work for you. Give it a time. Just enjoy for now your first tomato. Black Krim is very tasty tomato. It is so good you would not even need to salt it.

Hi Ella, I think you're right about my container sizes, as they seem too large for 5 gallon and too small for 10 gallon. Since tomatoes run shallow roots, I'm guessing that the diameter is a little too narrow then. I didn't use fish emulsion this time, but I'll be sure to use it next time--thanks for the tip! I'm eager to see how the Black Krim tastes and hopefully with the right balance of watering and fertilizer the next ones will be a little larger.

simmran1 · July 11, 2013

Cy,

Your plants may look puny, but healthy and seemingly productive. As discussed all over Tomatoville, container soils may be lacking in micro-nutrients. One of the cheapest 'additions' to try is, one tablespoon of Epsom salts per 1 gallon of water. And that is because the micro-nutrients: Magnesium & sulfer may be lacking in your top soil. I do this in all my containers, and I think there is a benefit.

NarnianGarden · July 11, 2013

Ms. Jitomate: Growing in a bag is a common option, but I don't like using the whole growth bag - they are supposed to contain everything your plants need, but I have heard of many complaining that the nutrients aren't enough for the whole season. Besides, a growth bag is nearly impossible to move around. I prefer smaller containers that are easier to move to shade/full sun, if need be.

Of course, smaller boxes or pots don't give plants the chance to grow and flex their roots in a way that a large bag does. But for now, I am content and will continue to explore next year.

Master_Gardener · July 11, 2013

I made mistakes my first year seriously gardening 2012. I know I am making mistakes this year, just not the same ones.

July 9, 2013	#1
cythaenopsis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hoboken, NJ USA Posts: 347	Am I doomed to a puny crop this year? Potting soil issue When I learned about SWC's, I was stoked because now I could grow fruit/vegetable producing plants in a confined space. I've always wanted to grow my own tomatoes so I read up a little bit on-line, went to Lowes to get my supplies, then picked up a couple of seedlings at a local nursery. After about a month, I started reading up on-line to increase my education. That's when I began to discover I'd done a few things right, but one major thing wrong: the potting medium. I see now that a potting mix coupled with stuff like peat moss and perlite is the best way to go with growing healthy and abundant tomatoes. But I made the mistake of using all out top soil. I did mix it with some fertilizer and I made sure to churn it up well so that it wasn't hard packed. It was claimed to be rich with nutrients, superior to potting soil. Well after 10 weeks I do have actively growing tomato plants that are basically healthy. One is producing 5 tomatoes right now, but the other languished with just one early tomato (although it appears that about 3-4 more blossoms have finally set). Am I doomed to an anemic crop this year? Or is there something I can do to compensate for the semi-inappropriate potting medium I've chosen? Will a plant food geared for tomato plants be worthwhile to add or should I just concede that these plants won't be abundant producers? Here's what they look like at the moment: Black Krim planted in 3rd week of May as a 10" seedling. Lemon Boy planted in 3rd week of May as an 8" seedling. __________________ I'm GardeningAloft.blogspot.com (container growing apartment dweller)

July 9, 2013	#3
cythaenopsis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hoboken, NJ USA Posts: 347	Thanks for your reply, Narnian. Wow, you're growing some in cardboard boxes?? I hadn't heard of doing that before. Do you provide some reinforcement to keep it from sagging when it gets wet? I've been browsing around a bit more and noting tomato plant foliage. I had used a high nitrogen fertilizer by mistake in the beginning and then backed off, for fear of the nitrogen level getting too high. But given how my plants are growing now compared to what I've seen on-line it looks like they're a little nitrogen starved. I imagine chicken poop and seaweed are good sources of it. I don't have easy access to those, but I'll try some alternatives. We have had some very hot and humid days here, pushing into the low and mid 90F/32C range. I tied on a white plastic bag to help provide a little shade on the blossoms so they would have a slightly better chance of surviving, which looks like it may have helped. Anyway, I was using some liquid fertilizer I had on hand which is 2-1-2, but I think I'll go out and get some fertilizer geared specifically for tomatoes and give that a shot. As for the soil, I'd been reading that the main concern is aeration, that typical soil will be much denser than potting mix and so the tomato roots won't breathe as well. I forgot to mention that my pots are the SWC type. When I dig my index finger into the soil, it feels moist but not soggy. I do some watering from above near the main stem when there are several days of no rain, so that there's some moisture and nutrient movement from the top down to the roots. But I think I'll do most of my watering from the bottom reservoir from now on. __________________ I'm GardeningAloft.blogspot.com (container growing apartment dweller)

July 9, 2013	#4
NarnianGarden Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Finland, EU Posts: 2,550	The reason for cardboard boxes was simply lack of containers - all were already taken! Plastic, clay, whatever - still there were some healthy seedlings, and my mom could find no other solution. Crafty woman she is, she had an idea that she simply would put an empty soil bag in the box, and fill it with soil / compost. That probably isn't doctrinally or politically correct, but the plant is thriving. It doesn't have lots of space for roots, but the little it has, seems to be enough for vigorous growth and lots of flowers. If I was to recommend that method to someone contemplating it, I'd advice them to add some pebbles in the bottom and make irrigation holes in the bag. Either way, the plant just suck up all water, and is in constant demand. That is NOT the perfect solution for someone who would like to take a two-week vacation in the middle of growing season! Last edited by NarnianGarden; July 9, 2013 at 01:31 PM.

July 9, 2013	#5
cythaenopsis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hoboken, NJ USA Posts: 347	Ah, I got you. Actually, it makes some sense. A large plastic soil bag with holes in the bottom could definitely do the trick. And after packing with the potting medium, run some cord around the box perimeter to give it some support. I have a seedling that I produced from a sucker and it's just about ready to be potted in a larger container. Of course it's rather late in the season, so there probably won't be much fruit producing opportunities for it. But it's definitely growing fast and who knows, if I can get at least a handful of fruit from it before the season ends then it was probably worth doing. Or I may just give it to a neighbor to have a go at it, who doesn't have many tomato plants this year. __________________ I'm GardeningAloft.blogspot.com (container growing apartment dweller)

July 10, 2013	#9
cythaenopsis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hoboken, NJ USA Posts: 347	^ In doing some light digging, I came across some surface roots that broke away, so I'm a bit leery of turning the soil much. A friend had recommended using a gardening hand rake, about the size of a spade but with spikes. I may give that a go and just gently puncture some holes into the soil for aeration. I am trying to do watering on both ends--mostly container filling but also some periodic water from above during long stretches between rainy days (we had a deluge about 9 days ago but hardly any rain since). I also re-read the packaging for the topsoil which said it has fertilizer and peat moss mixed in... so it seems like the mistake wasn't too bad. Anyway, my fertilizing effort being a little too light resulted in a rather small first tomato. It's a Black Krim and not even as large as a tennis ball! But I'm hopeful the ones to come will be larger. __________________ I'm GardeningAloft.blogspot.com (container growing apartment dweller)

July 10, 2013	#8
zipcode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Romania/Germany , z 4-6 Posts: 1,582	They seem to be doing pretty well. Probably overall production won't be as good as with a proper mix, but I think it will be fine. Would help to fluff the soil every month or so, without damaging the roots if possible. It will compact after a certain amount of time. I also have some soil in containers, mixed with sand, it's not a terrible mix at all for top watering, but for self watering, the more air the better.

July 10, 2013	#10
efisakov Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: NJ, zone 7 Posts: 3,162	Container plants tend to be on a smaller side. Yours look like 7 gallons or so. For the beefsteak tomato is better to use at least 10 gallon container. We learn from each year experience. Fish emulsion is used by many as a fertilizer. I just put some fish and shrimp scales close to the bottom of container. You will find what will work for you. Give it a time. Just enjoy for now your first tomato. Black Krim is very tasty tomato. It is so good you would not even need to salt it. __________________ Ella God comes along and says, "I think I'm going to create THE tomato!”

July 10, 2013	#11
Ms. Jitomate Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: San Gabriel Valley, CA Posts: 99	"Crafty woman she is, she had an idea that she simply would put an empty soil bag in the box, and fill it with soil / compost. That probably isn't doctrinally or politically correct, but the plant is thriving. It doesn't have lots of space for roots, but the little it has, seems to be enough for vigorous growth and lots of flowers." An author named Barbara Pleasant, calls it Easy-Care Grow Bag, in her Starter Vegetable Garden book. She doesn't even remove the bag until the season is over. And this link shows an actual picture. http://www.houselogic.com/blog/garde...den-in-a-bag/#.

July 11, 2013	#13
simmran1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Iowa Zone 5 Posts: 305	Cy, Your plants may look puny, but healthy and seemingly productive. As discussed all over Tomatoville, container soils may be lacking in micro-nutrients. One of the cheapest 'additions' to try is, one tablespoon of Epsom salts per 1 gallon of water. And that is because the micro-nutrients: Magnesium & sulfer may be lacking in your top soil. I do this in all my containers, and I think there is a benefit. __________________ Tomatovillain

July 11, 2013	#15
Master_Gardener Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: Central Indiana 6a/41 Posts: 131	I made mistakes my first year seriously gardening 2012. I know I am making mistakes this year, just not the same ones. __________________ Russel USDA: Zone 6a, Sunset Zone 41 - 15 miles NW of Indianapolis, IN I had a problem with slugs. I tried using beer but it didn't work, until I gave it to the slugs.