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Old February 20, 2007   #16
grunt
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Okay, okay, I caught the mis-spelling as soon as I hit the submit button (Volove Srce/Serdtse = Volovo Srce/Serdtse).
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Old February 21, 2007   #17
Andrey_BY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tania
Andrey,

Can I disagree with you on the spelling of

VOLOVO SRCE ?

I believe it is a correct Serbian spelling; and there is a Serbian variety with this name (not necessarily Russian), so I don't think this one should be corrected with 'Russian' spelling
Tania, yes, it's correct Serbian spelling, but it is Russian heirloom variety Volov'e Serdtse. Grown them side-by-side and they looked like one and the same variety :wink:
As I mentioned here before there were free seed exchanges within Warsaw Pact countries (Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland and USSR) and I believe this old Russian heirloon had been imported to Yugoslavia then (Serbia now) :wink:
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Old February 21, 2007   #18
carolyn137
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Khirh=Khirkhiv a.k.a Kharkov (Ukrainian heirloom - named after their city)

*****

Andrey, I got two varieties, Kiev and Khirhiv, from someone local years ago and listed them in the SSE Yearbook in 1996. From an Al Lefkowitz in Albany New York.

I simply cannot remember if I named them or they were already named when I got them. As I recall he did have a Ukrainian background. I haven't seen that Ukrainian city spelled as you do, with an rk in the middle, only as Khirhiv.

So did both of these exist as so named before I got them? B/c if so it was Khirhiv as received by me.

Another question. You often say this or that variety is an amateur variety. Exactly what do you mean by amateur? I'm sure you mean not bred deliberately by someone employed by an agricultural institute or similar, but am I also to assume that when you say amateur you mean an heirloom variety?

And if so, what is your definition of an heirloom tomato variety?
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Old February 21, 2007   #19
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I grew Amber colored when the SSE first acquired it from Russia, in 1994 (David Cavagnaro gave me a whole bunch at the SSE campout that year - Oak, Azure, Ice, Carrot Like, Lemmony, Raspberry colored, Amber colored, Black Plum, Black from Tula, then Aaron Whealy, on a visit to my house while in NC, gave me Plum Lemon, Southern Night, Snowball, Russian Persimmon, Glory of Moldova, Bulls Heart, Clear Pink Early, Cosmonaut Volkov Red, Orange, and Azoychka ).

I grew all of them out - some were quite short, possibly Dwarf (I didn't take great notes back then) - Oak, Azure, Carrot Like, Raspberry, Amber, Southern Night, Russian Persimmon, Glory of Moldova were all relatively to very short/compact. Of this bunch, I found Southern Night and Russian Persimmon to have the best flavor.

Of the entire set of Russian varieties, to me, Black from Tula, Lemmony, Orange (actually an early indeterminate with yellow, oblate fruit - very disease prone), and Azoychka were head and shoulders above the rest, flavor wise.
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Old February 21, 2007   #20
carolyn137
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I grew Amber colored when the SSE first acquired it from Russia, in 1994 (David Cavagnaro gave me a whole bunch at the SSE campout that year - Oak, Azure, Ice, Carrot Like, Lemmony, Raspberry colored, Amber colored, Black Plum, Black from Tula, then Aaron Whealy, on a visit to my house while in NC, gave me Plum Lemon, Southern Night, Snowball, Russian Persimmon, Glory of Moldova, Bulls Heart, Clear Pink Early, Cosmonaut Volkov Red, Orange, and Azoychka ).

*****

OK, then I got Oak and Azure and Ice and Lemmony and Raspberry colored and Amber colored and Azoychka from you.

And you do remember how Lemmony became Limmony, don't you. :wink:

But I was also sent a whole bunch directly from SSE to trial and Black Plum and Black from Tula and Southern Night and Black Seaman and Glory of Moldova and Clear Pink Early and Cosmonaut Volkov were some of those, I don't remember off hand all the others ones.

And I don't have those earliest data books but I was not at all impressed with Oak and Ice and Azure and Amber and Raspberry, that I do remember.

And somewhere in there I also grew one called Triangulaire which was NOT triangular.

Thank heavens your memory is better than mine Craig, at least for most things.
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Old February 21, 2007   #21
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That's good you both have quite good memories

But I can't understand this double-standard policy of naming at SSE. If they got some Russian tomato varieties all they did was just translate original Russian names in English instead of just spell them in Latin letters from Cyrillic.

On the other hand they list, for example, Riesentraube as Riesentraube and not as Giant Bunch of Grapes. Pennsylvania Dutch people had been saving this original German name (Riesentraube) for more than 150 years and SSE supported them in this field. Why not doing the same for Russian gardeners who have been growing tomatoes for more than 200 years?!
Druzba is still Druzba and not Friendship in SSE catalog. Cuore de Bour (Italian) is still Cour de Boue, but Bytch'e Serdtse (Russian) is for some reason Bull's Heart

Oak is originally Dubok (a.k.a. Dubrava)
Southern Night is Yuzhnaya Noch'
Russian Persimmon is Khurma
Glory of Moldova is Slava Moldovy
Silvery Fir Tree is originally Serebristaya El'
Azoychka is Azochka a.k.a. Zolotoy Barago
Carrot like is Morkovnyi
Limmony is Gigant Limonnyi
Black Plum is Chyornaya Slivka

Somebody should set a common rule in this field once and forever and promote it everywhere! Either all foreign (to Americans) varieties should be spelled as is in Latin letters or they should be always translated in English when possible (original word has an equivalent in English)
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Old February 21, 2007   #22
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Andrey, it isn't SSE that's naming the ones they got from Marie Danilenko, it's she who is translating them into her idea of what they should be in English. Perhaps it was SSE that requested that, but I doubt it, but really don't know.

I agree it would be great if all varietries from all countries where English is not the native language were listed in the original language of those countries, but it's never going to happen.

And it will never happen b'c from the time that SSE put out their first Yearbook in 1975 there were those who had gotten varieties from overseas where the variety names were already in English, and they didn't have a clue as to what the names were in the original language.

So along comes someone who lists one of those varieties in English with its original name and of course now it's double listed.

BTW, Carrot-Like and Silvery Fir Tree are identical in all ways, I've grown them both, so why in Russian language do they have two different names?

Carrot-like was offered by Seeds Blum here in the US and that's where I got that, way back in the mid-80's, and Silvery Fir Tree was first offered by SSE in the early to mid 90's and much to Earl's amazement, yes I've grown that one as well.

And then I grew both together one summer and they are identical.

And how about my other question as regards what amateur means as related to heirloom?
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Old February 21, 2007   #23
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Many of the Russian names are too hard to pronounce - let alone spell - for westerners even in the latin form. And trying to pronounce something like Serebristaya El' , we'd spritz all over everyone within 3 feet of you , like when Sylvester tries to say "suffering succotash!"

That is why I think most Russian varieties have their names changed. Riesentraube, on the other hand, flows off the lips to a westerner.
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Old February 21, 2007   #24
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I agree with Barkeater-it's an unfamiliarity with how to pronounce the Latin versions of the Cyrillic names that makes the written version difficult to use on a day-to-day basis. Hopefully that will change with time in this post-Soviet era. I think most everyone would agree that the original name--in whatever language--is preferred over re-naming.

I too am interested in what "amateur variety" means. I have been taking it to mean "open pollinated, (perhaps bred) and saved by non-professionals."
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Old February 22, 2007   #25
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I'm agree with all of you that it'd really difficult to organize this campagne against renaming and I agree that it's really hard for you to pronounse Russian names, but that's what we usually do this your varieties (foreign for us) on the other side of Atlantic :wink: Just spell in Russian your American/Canadian/English etc. variety names inspite of how difficult it can be to pronounce these foreign names in Russian Othewise there can be disorder with translation and original names. And also we have got a Gosreestr (an official list issued twice a year by Russian State organization "Gossort") for all vegetable varieties which can be sold commercially (officially). There are a rather big room for foreign varieties (both commercial and OPs) there as well and for all of them only original name on original language used

Carolyn, it seems to me Morkovnyi (~Carrot-Like) is an improved commercial sport of Serebristaya El' (Silvery Fir Tree) which is an amateur variety Some of our commercial seed companies are still offering Morkovnyi, but nobody offers Serebristaya El'

And yes, we call "amateur variety" or "amateurish variety" ("lyubitel'skiy sort" in Russian) every vegetable variety which was bred by non-professional breeder. Some of these amateur varieties are now available via commercial seed companies and some are not and maintained only my amateur gardeners. That's just Russian tradition to name non-professional gardeners as amateurs. We have been using this term even since Russian Empire Tsar's times

And our amateur gardeners (breeders) can develope not only OPs but Hybrids as well as your foreign amateur gardeners :wink:

Well, it's not so easy for me to believe that even a half of all people from former USSR countries whom you deal with initially traslate names of varieties they are sending you. I believe that's upon your request and of course it's much simplier for them just write original names in Latin/English letters :wink:
So that's had been upon SSE request to M.Danilenko of how she could provide names for all varieties she sent abroad :wink: Kent just should ask her provide only original names. And if there is no common rules for all then no order :wink: I see so many good rules on how SSE requests shall be organized. Why not to set this rule to mention only original names for all new SSE Yearbook entries and to use at least double names (already known and original) as well?! :wink:
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Old February 22, 2007   #26
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Why not to set this rule to mention only original names for all new SSE Yearbook entries and to use at least double names (already known and original) as well?!

*****

Why not?

Because there would be few to no more listings from countries other than those countries where English is the official language, that's why?

Think about it Andrey. You've got listed SSE folks who get seeds from all over, and then are perhaps traded around from friend to friend. Often times the seeds that they receive do not HAVE original names, so the so called unoriginal ones are used. And even if they have the originally named ones they usually don't know what the translated names are.

And I'm not talking just about your part of the world, I'm talking about ANY country where English is not the primary language.

Take Ake in Sweden, for instance. He gets all sorts of varieties from your part of the world and then lists them, but his spellings of them aren't usually the same as others who list the same varieties they got elsewhere.

And on and on it goes.

I haven't seen any new varieties that SSE has gotten from Marie Danilenko in many many years so that's no longer an issue.

So you're organizing a campaign are you? I couldn't agree with you more on what you want to accomplish, but it isn't going to happen I'm afraid. SSE has its imperfections, that is true, many of them as I see it, but without the formation of SSE back in 1975 we would not have the huge listings of varieties that we do have today and that have enriched the lives of many of us, myself included.

Back to amateur. How do you distinguish a FAMILY heirloom, not bred by an amateur, from what you call an amateur variety? Is there a word in Russian to describe family heirlooms that have been passed down through the generations?

Do you have a definition of heirloom so as to distinguish between family and commercial heirlooms, and those that arose by natural cross pollination versus those that were bred by amateurs?

And I'm sticking to my story on Carrot-Like and Silvery Fir Tree. Have you grown both of them as I have? Again, they look alike to me and I can't see any improvement in what you call Carrot-like, over what we know as SFT. :wink:

How I would just love to sit down and chat with you for hours upon end. Really.

I'm just finishing a book about Pushkin and the duel and had no idea it was all so complicated and initiated by the anonymous letters that he and his friends received about his wife, etc. And still today the author of those letters is debated and debated and debated. A couple of months ago I had read another book about how Peter the Great had adopted a young boy from Africa named Hannibal and how Pushkin is a descendent of Hannibal.
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Old February 22, 2007   #27
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Andrey, I grew a variety last year purchased in the Ukraine, named Tayana (translation). It looks much like Silvery Fir tree(at least the ferny carrot tops) or Carrot-Like(have not grown this one). I did not have good luck with either, they were just ok.
Would you think Tayana is just another name for one of these? Thanks, Patty
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Old February 23, 2007   #28
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Dear Caloyn,
since I'm only 31 y.o. and had been living in "the country of the winning Communism" (USSR) for 15 years I'm still have a lot of maximalism
I can even write down this common rules of how to spell Russian names in English and send them to Ake and anybody who is interested in. If Geza will do the same for Hungarian names and Hristo - for Bulgarian etc. we could try to organize all quite fine :wink:

Back to amateur I must admit there is no any special word for heirlooms in CIS (former USSR countries) All varieties which had been either grown by amateur gardeners at their dacha's gardens for 1 year or for ages and those that arose by natural cross pollination or those that were bred by amateurs all are usually called "amateur varieties" versus to those which were bred by Agricultural Institutes, AES or seed companies (commercial varieties)!
More to say, most of our gardeners think if they will maintain one and the same OP variety for more than let's say 5 years it'll cause luck of taste, fruits size and the total productivity and at the end waist of time to re-grow it next time
There are so few villiage people here who maintain their own old varieties for ages. I've heard only about very poor people who are still doing like that. But usually even they doing like that they proclame they got original seeds for these varieties from somebody who had bought them either at Agricultural Institutes, AES or was given at kolkhoz.
As for me last 3 years I'm really trying my best to find some old Soviet varieties which were bred by well-known Soviet amateur breeders. I'm afraid this is the only interesting field here so far. I'm really don't believe in what you call Russian or Soviet heirlooms. That works only for immigrant pre-1917 varieties!

I'm gonna grow both Morkovsnyi and Serebristaya El' this year and will inform you on my comparing results. But even they will look similar I believe that the first variety is a commercial strain of the second one. It's just our Soviet and post-Soviet tradition that some seed companies maintain and improved (as they say ) old amateur varieties :wink:
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Old February 23, 2007   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patty_b
Andrey, I grew a variety last year purchased in the Ukraine, named Tayana (translation). It looks much like Silvery Fir tree(at least the ferny carrot tops) or Carrot-Like(have not grown this one). I did not have good luck with either, they were just ok.
Would you think Tayana is just another name for one of these? Thanks, Patty
Patty,as I've already mentioned here before I do know that most of tomato varieti being sold in Ukraine have either Soviet or Russian origin
As for Tayana I don't know variety with such name existed. Probably it's name is Tatiana (or Tatyana) which is very popular Russian name :wink: But there is still no tomato variety with similar carrot-like foliage known for me Probably somebody in Ukraine who used to grow Morkovnyi or Serebristaya El' tomato varieties just rename one of them after her name (the gardener's name) as I know a lot of such a cases
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Old February 24, 2007   #30
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Carolyn, I know about a background of both these Ukrainian tomato varieties from Al Lefkowitz. But what I can't understand is why he named one of them in Ukrainian (Khirkiv) and one in Russian (Kiev) instead of Kyiv, which is how Ukrainian language spells the name of their capital And Khirkiv is right in Ukrainian language, but the Russian (Soviet) name of this city is Kharkov :wink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev

As for existence of such tomato varieties. Of course, no You need to know our former Soviet system of naming varieties to understand that there can be such tomato names on this side of the world
But I really appreciate you heirloom naming system after people's names and places of origin :wink:
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