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Old July 16, 2017   #226
Worth1
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Salt I'm not really up on what bothers what as far as nematodes F wilt and so one goes BUT......
A garden is much much more than tomatoes cucumbers and such.
Consider berries and fruit tress including nuts.
Grow some table grapes if they will grow, as I said I have no idea what will be bothered by the nematodes.
Then for you and your family grow some cherry tomatoes in 4 or 5 containers.
The act and therapy of gardening isn't about growing every darn kind of plant or tomato there is, it is growing plants and having a good time.

I want to grow an avocado tree but it isn't going to happen.
I want a coconut palm but that will never happen here either.

And dont be afraid to break the rules.
An example is the guy I work with.
He was struggling trying to put a door opening solenoid together.
I asked him why are you doing it that way?
Because the instructions said so.
I said do it this way and we did.
Why did the instructions say to do it the other way he asked?
Because they were written by idiots I told him.
I'm not saying everyone is an idiot.
What I am saying is think outside the box try new things and see what happens.
The mass production of High Speed Steel was invented by two knuckle heads that dared think outside the box and break the rules.

""
In 1899 and 1900, Frederick Winslow Taylor and Maunsel White, working with a team of assistants at the Bethlehem Steel Company at Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, US, performed a series of experiments with the heat treating of existing high-quality tool steels, such as Mushet steel, heating them to much higher temperatures than were typically considered desirable in the industry.[3][4] Their experiments were characterised by a scientific empiricism in that many different combinations were made and tested, with no regard for conventional wisdom or alchemic recipes, and with detailed records kept of each batch. The end result was a heat treatment process that transformed existing alloys into a new kind of steel that could retain its hardness at higher temperatures, allowing much higher speeds and rate of cutting when machining.
The Taylor-White process[5] was patented and created a revolution in the machining industries. Heavier machine tools with higher rigidity were needed to use the new steel to its full advantage, prompting redesigns and replacement of installed plant. The patent was hotly contested and eventually nullified.[6]""
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Old July 16, 2017   #227
AlittleSalt
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Robert,I think it's good to remember that having FFF does not ensure resistance, what it does is to increase tolerance.No such thing as total resistance and I can say more if you want me to about that.

Carolyn
I completely agree Carolyn. Just the other day I was reading a post by Bill about some varieties of FFFN tomatoes did better than others for him. I expect something of that nature here in our gardens.

Carolyn, by all means, say anything you want. I have learned a lot from you, and I appreciate your help very much.
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Old July 16, 2017   #228
Starlight
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The first picture is what the plants look like if you just let them try to grow.

The second picture is one of the 15 that looked good a week ago. They are growing/dying in the onion bed.

The last picture is of the 17 that want to be planted, but where? They say that The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Albert Einstein also said:
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/a..._einstein.html
Salt... You may have RKN and F. Wilt, but from your pics I see other things. This is what I see.

First pic ... Your in TX and while you had alot of rain you have extreme heat too. Every year temps and air flows change. Even a couple of degrees can make a major difference on the plants.

Sure disease may be showing, but I see burn. What I see is that you have have plants that have no cover over them at all. I see plants that actually haven't had enough water deep in the ground and enough fertilizer and so the plants started dying at the bottom and without the proper nutrients and water your plants have been weakened and fried by the sun.

I'd pull those plants in pic one out. Turn the soil a bit and expose any RKN that there to the sun. It will help dry them them up and kill them. If you had any leaves in that ground, rake them out, all what you can.

If your up for an experiment, do the above then take one or two of your seedlings in pic three and plant them there. Ones you have extra of. When you go to put the plants in the hole, put some TT or TTF , whichever you using and some Epsom salt in bottom of hole. Not alot only about 1TBs of each. Mi it around. Put some more of your soil in hole then put your plant in. Before you pack soil around the plant put another TBS of each around your plant and then backfill the last of your soil in and top dress with another TBS of each about 3" from plant stem in circle.

In the cake decorating and candy making section of Walmart you can find larger packages of cheesecloth. Think the widest I got was 3' Since you already have poles and strings there you can just place it right over the top of your structure. Also place some of the cheesecloth down the side that gets the hot afternoon sun.

Folks look at my structure and wonder if I crazy or not because I only have a heavier grade, cheesecloth only across the top half and one side of my shade structure. That where the worst of the sun comes. The hottest part of the day for me is about 4 hours. Even just that small amount of covering keeps those plants 15 to 20F cooler than if in full sun, yet it lets in plenty of light.


Also, Let me ask you when was the last time you checked your pH? I know you amend with lots of mulched leaves and stuff, but actually the nutrient levels in those is very very low. Almost non-existent.

Have you actually gone out there and dug around the base of the sick plants and seen just how much moisture there is in your soil and how far down it goes?

You can by a hand help pH meter for 10-15 bucks. Also tells you if plants are getting enough light and water. Only thing I don't like is probe only goes about 8" into ground or pots. I usually have to dig small hole and then put meter in bottom of that hole to get actual water and pH at deeper levels where the plant roots are.

Your second pic. Looks just like what I did a few years ago when I first tried growing in ground. I used leaves for a mulch. Major mistake. I see that your leaves are way..way.. to close to the stock of your plant. You need to pull those leaves back a good 6" at least from around that plant.

I realize your probably trying to keep moisture in the ground for your plant, but actually you are depriving it. When you have a leaf mulch and thick like yours. The water when you do water, generally does not get down into the ground. it will moisten the leaves and sit on them and sun as that sun hits what water you have put out is evaporated and your plants are dying of thirst.

I say that plant needs a deep watering and some TTF and Epsom salt in a major way. Feed every other week at least. You may be able to save it. Just my opinion.

I agree with Worth. Experiment with some other types of plants. I can tell you blackberries are not affected by RKN and grow some plants in containers, but even if you do containers, your still going to need some sort of cover from the sun. Even a piece of old latice wood will work.

If you try the experiment with your tomato plant, let me know how it does.
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Old July 16, 2017   #229
AlittleSalt
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Worth I do have some other idea about things to grow. I've been paying attention to the fields of commercially/professionally grown things. The thing you see most is corn around here but there are fields of grain too. I'll have to find out what kind it is and if chickens like to eat it. There is an old building near the local courthouse that is a feed and seed store. It has been in business for longer than I've been alive. They would know what is being grown around here.

As far as other crops that can grow in RKN infested soil. Mustard greens are one that I have read that is supposed to ward off or even kill RKN. I'm watching marigolds grow in the same bed as the one the tomato plants were in. I have always enjoyed growing flowers. Onions do well, and I still have lot of Elbon cereal rye seed. Maybe it will actually get cold this upcoming winter? The cereal rye is also supposed to kill RKN. Corn is another, but we don't eat enough corn to make it worth while - besides corn sells for 5 ears for a dollar. All of the above research was done about RKN.
EDIT: I forgot, purslane grows like a weed in it.

About Fusarium Wilt, I have a ton of research to do.
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Old July 16, 2017   #230
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Star, I have 4 raised beds that are 5' x 12' built just for growing tomatoes in - in the fall. They begin to be shaded at 2pm and are completely in shade by 3:15pm. I just did a soil test. The first picture shows the PH level. The second picture shows the fertility. The pictures come from the first bed. I just checked the second bed with the same results.

The dirt for the 4 beds came from the same place as the dirt in the separate raised beds that had the problems, so I'm thinking they will have RKN and Fusarium too. But maybe not?

I'll plant one of those fall beds with three tomato plants exactly as you wrote about in post 228. Oh wait, I have Plant Tone instead of Tomato Tone.

I will plant one of each of these:

Big Beef F1 VFFNTA
Japanese Pink Cherry
Sweetie Cherry
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Old July 16, 2017   #231
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Star, I have 4 raised beds that are 5' x 12' built just for growing tomatoes in - in the fall. They begin to be shaded at 2pm and are completely in shade by 3:15pm. I just did a soil test. The first picture shows the PH level. The second picture shows the fertility. The pictures come from the first bed. I just checked the second bed with the same results.

The dirt for the 4 beds came from the same place as the dirt in the separate raised beds that had the problems, so I'm thinking they will have RKN and Fusarium too. But maybe not?

I'll plant one of those fall beds with three tomato plants exactly as you wrote about in post 228. Oh wait, I have Plant Tone instead of Tomato Tone.

I will plant one of each of these:

Big Beef F1 VFFNTA
Japanese Pink Cherry
Sweetie Cherry
The time you want to protect the plants from sun is starting about 10 to 2 in the summer months.

pH for first pic is good. Second is way to low. I don't know about Plant Tone. What nutirents does it have and does it have any of the good fungicides and bacteria in it or just the regular NPK?

I'm no experienced grower like some here, but all them cherries I grew last year needed constant feedings with Miracle grow besides the TT and Epsom Salt.

One thing I have learned this year with this bigger tomatoes is they really require the water and ferts. Another thing I do and some folks don't agree is I water at 5-6pm in evenings and I give every plant a ten count of water. Plants grow at night. At night they looking for food and water. During hot day they more or less shut down and conserve what water they can. Feeding in the evenings gives them a chance to cool off and take up nutrients. Now when it 100+F out here, about 11 m I may give a quick 5 count to those who need it. I don't water doing day and for me, anyways, it helps keep away diseases.

Sorry, I forget, where did you get that soil from for your raised beds? If it wasn't from a commercial bag, you may have chemical drift/seepage in it. I think besides RNK and F. Wilts you have other major problems going on.

Save up and get a plant pathology test done on your soil. Have it be specifically for RKN and types of Fusarium. Some Extension services will send off to college plant labs for free otherwise it about 20 bucks. May be more in Tx. Seems things in TX bigger including prices.
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Old July 16, 2017   #232
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Many on the board have grafted a lot longer than I have, but I remember feeling the same way about the cost. This is why I changed.

I had some minor problems with wilt. I wasn't sure what type of wilt, but a few full size healthy plants would just start wilting. I thought they just needed water but the wilting just got worse.

I knew because I grow in a wooded back yard that there was no way to ROTATE my tomatoes every year.

I found Big Beef seeds on sale and determined to "save" money by just using those to graft. Then I started to think: what if I go through all the trouble of grafting only to learn that I had the third variety of Fusarium and my Big Beef rootstock can't handle it.

At that point, I bit the bullet and ordered expensive RST-106 rootstock and paid their expensive shipping costs. Uggh.

I'm glad I did. Maybe it was the mild winter, but I've had more disease problems this year and my grafted plants are doing great. I'm glad I grafted and used rootstock that I could trust. Mentally, I can run through 20 other things that I've paid the same price for this past year that I wish I hadn't bought.

I'm reordering RST-106 this year. (Looks like some even better rootstock is being introduced soon.)

From looking at a couple different seed company websites, I'm not convinced that Celebrity is FFF or F 0,1,2. It's frustrating that different websites make different claims.
Cornell's disease resistance table might be of interest; it lists resistances by variety: http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.corne...omato_2013.pdf
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Old July 16, 2017   #233
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Star, the second picture shows the fertility. The meter has a switch.

Up is PH Analysis
Middle is Off
Down is Fertilizer Analysis = the second picture.

Plant Tone 5-3-3 https://www.espoma.com/product/plant-tone/
Tomato Tone 3-4-6 https://www.espoma.com/product/tomato-tone/

The soil came from about 150' away on our property. All top soil.

Yes, I need to get a soil analysis done. A regular one costs $10 and is sent to Texas A&M. I'm not sure about other tests cost, but I know there are other tests that can be done through the county ag office.
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Old July 16, 2017   #234
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Salt my friend.. You really...really need to get that soil test done before you do too much more. If you don't, you just gonna be spinning your wheels and wasting money an time and building your stress level up which is no way good for your health and we want you round for long..long time. : )

I sure wouldn't have used soil from my property without having it tested for pathogens first. Who knows what has drifted on to it.

I agree with Hudson Valley. Why not go down to Want Forum and see if anybody has a couple of seeds they will spare or trade you for of the RST-106. Couldn't hurt to give it a try. That way you can see what happens without spending alot of money for something that may or may not work.

Did you dig down and check actually amount of moisture yet? What's it look like about 6-8" down?
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Old July 16, 2017   #235
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I completely agree Carolyn. Just the other day I was reading a post by Bill about some varieties of FFFN tomatoes did better than others for him. I expect something of that nature here in our gardens.

Carolyn, by all means, say anything you want. I have learned a lot from you, and I appreciate your help very much.
Many years ago in a galaxy far away,OK, how about mainly in California on large commercial tomato fields,hundreds of acres, they bought seeds that were said to be resistant to this and that,and when planted out, they still do direct seeding in the ground out there,the plants still came down with diseases they weren't supposed to do. And we're talking primarily foliage diseases,not soil borne ones

So they sued the seed companies where they got the seed from and won.

Then the US association of US Tomato growers,or whatever they call themselves said that the word resistance should be changed to tolerance.

And we know how that played out. Companies are still saying resistant to this and that and it certainly brings the money in,and they aren't.

Carolyn
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Old July 16, 2017   #236
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I say grow pecan trees.
You will have pecans to eat and sell and squirrels to eat.
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Old July 16, 2017   #237
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Thank you for sharing that Carolyn. I will use the word Tolerance from now on.

Worth, when we moved here, my father bought 20 acres. Years later he sold the front 10 acres - it's a pecan orchard. The people who bought the land did not graft or take care of the trees in any way. Now half of them are dead. The 7 year drought got them.

Star, I dug down 8 inches and the soil looks great - not too wet or dry. I took a picture - sorry it's blurry - why so deep? Here transplanted tomato roots only grow down around 4 or 5 inches and spread out.

There's a thunderstorm building right over us.

...Of course it is...I just picked up the downed limbs from the last wind storm.
Good thing I didn't wash the car or it would flood
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Old July 16, 2017   #238
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Thank you for sharing that Carolyn. I will use the word Tolerance from now on.

Worth, when we moved here, my father bought 20 acres. Years later he sold the front 10 acres - it's a pecan orchard. The people who bought the land did not graft or take care of the trees in any way. Now half of them are dead. The 7 year drought got them.

Star, I dug down 8 inches and the soil looks great - not too wet or dry. I took a picture - sorry it's blurry - why so deep? Here transplanted tomato roots only grow down around 4 or 5 inches and spread out.

There's a thunderstorm building right over us.

...Of course it is...I just picked up the downed limbs from the last wind storm.
Good thing I didn't wash the car or it would flood
Sorry to have you do some extra work digging. Reason I asked is first I wanted to make sure that your soil was not too dry or too wet. You need three things in your soil. Your grains of soil and air pockets. The air pockets for not only air for the plant but hold water. Too little and the plants wilt and burn. Too much and the roots rot. Took me many years of checking soil after rains and watering to see how much actually stayed in the ground and how deep and what watering count I needed. Of course that all goes out the window with too many rainstorms.
For going down that deep, another reason is because even though your plants are transplanted, you still have a main taproot. Depending on how deep you bury your plants, that tap root can actually be planted alot deeper than what you had it growing in your container. If your taproot gets too much water it will rot and also will not produce the feeder roots which are the ones growing sideways. I could be wrong, but actually you should have some of the feeder roots growing down as deep as the tap root. If the feeder roots all staying near surface they may be getting too much water at top soil level and being lazy and not growing deeper and making stronger healthier roots.

Since your soil is moist and not too dry that deep, you might plant your seedlings that deep. That way you'll have some stronger roots and feeder roots hopefully, plus you won't have as many RNK moving along with the water in the top of the soil to affect your new growth of feeder roots and attaching to them.

Sometimes I only have one or two inches of top growth showing so I can plant deep. The saying is , "Take care of the roots and the tops will take care of themselves." This I have found to be true.

Like Carolyn says, there no plant that resistant, only some more tolerant of others. Give healthy bottoms and they more apt to be able to withstand some diseases and attacks from pests.
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Old July 17, 2017   #239
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Star, hugs. We live a long way apart. You are a very good friend and you are the only Tomatoville member to call me. Thank you.

What we know about growing tomatoes are two different thought sets. I learned from others and my own grow outs that planting deep only causes problems getting water to the roots. I built and filled the raised beds in 2015 with soil before I knew we had RKN in 2016. I didn't know about the Fusarium wilt until this thread in 2017.

Not getting a soil test and filling the beds with soil from our land came from poverty. I put things back at the dollar store because I can live without it. I have one pair of pants that I wear out in public and three shirts. The best one is from almost 20 years ago. I choose everything else above myself.

But growing some FFFN tomatoes that might have some chance is worth trying. I can't do the seed trade anymore. Earlier in this thread - it is possible to spread Fusarium through seeds. I can't do that.
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Old July 17, 2017   #240
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Star, hugs. We live a long way apart. You are a very good friend and you are the only Tomatoville member to call me. Thank you.

What we know about growing tomatoes are two different thought sets. I learned from others and my own grow outs that planting deep only causes problems getting water to the roots. I built and filled the raised beds in 2015 with soil before I knew we had RKN in 2016. I didn't know about the Fusarium wilt until this thread in 2017.

Not getting a soil test and filling the beds with soil from our land came from poverty. I put things back at the dollar store because I can live without it. I have one pair of pants that I wear out in public and three shirts. The best one is from almost 20 years ago. I choose everything else above myself.

But growing some FFFN tomatoes that might have some chance is worth trying. I can't do the seed trade anymore. Earlier in this thread - it is possible to spread Fusarium through seeds. I can't do that.
You and your wife sweeties. Pleasure all mine..

Been there too, so I know what you mean. You do what you can and hope for the best.

Yep, you know your ground better than anybody. I did do that one year, planted a foot deep and had put tons of semi fresh bunny poop in holes and on top. Lost every plant I had to disease. Experience the greatest learning tool.

It would be my honor to sponsor you this year for the MMM Swap. You always sponsoring others. Thanks to helping TV'ers I got plenty again this year.
Yes, it possible for transmission of Fusarium, but I not sure how high of a percentage.

Not sure exactly all who may have or now dealing with Fusarium, but you might ask what folks have and if they still trade seeds and if anybody they traded with had problems. It may be a case of when the tomatoes were picked and how badly affected the plants were. Not really sure and the one person at Auburn that really knew the in's and out's of plant diseases has retired. Not sure if I can find her or not to ask.

Maybe somebody will come up with some good answers or research that will help. Crossing fingers.
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