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General discussion regarding the techniques and methods used to successfully grow tomato plants in containers.

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Old April 3, 2013   #1
SharonRossy
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Default 5-1-1 gritty Mix - Looking for more advice

Hey Everyone,

I need some clarification about container soil for tomatoes which I got on another forum. I just want to make sure - the gritty mix is the perlite and lime or is the whole thing considered gritty mix. This is going to be my first time using this type of mixture and I'm a bit nervous about the pine bark fines. I live in Montreal and there's lots of bark, but not sure about how fine they are. There are some that come almost shredded, is that what I'm looking for? And I need to screen? I posted this on the general discussion and realized it should be here.

Thanks a million.
Sharon
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Old April 5, 2013   #2
Tonio
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Gritty mix is : 1 1 1 ( 1 part each of turface, granite grit and bark fines) can add gypsum. I find its good for succulents/cati
5 1 1 is 5 parts bark fines, 1 part peat, 1 part perlite ( add 1 TBS lime per gallon of mix. I use a modified use with some turface and DE added in.

Bark fines should be 3/8" to 1/4" , you should screen for optimum size. I am using pumice in place of granite for more moisture/fert-nutrient retention-less weight for veggies/herbs. I use fir bark at smaller size for smaller pots, larger size for larger pots.
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Old April 5, 2013   #3
tedln
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Sharon,

I have successfully grown vegetables for many years in many different sizes of containers with nothing more than a 70/30 mix of organics and sandy soil. A "guru" on a different forum became very angry with me for suggesting the "gritty" mix isn't necessary. I'm sure it is a good product, but so is organics and dirt. I see no reason to drive all over the country looking for pine bark fines, turpice, and all the other stuff he uses in his mix. I certainly wouldn't want to dissuade you from using it, but dirt works fine. The organics I mix with the sandy soil can range from garden compost to purchased bags of organics. You may need to add some fertilizer and minerals, but I believe the "gritty mix" needed fertilizer as well.

I would be happy to compare what I grow this year in my "natural" soil to anything grown in "gritty mix".

Ted

Last edited by tedln; April 5, 2013 at 09:28 PM.
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Old April 6, 2013   #4
MileHighGuy
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Originally Posted by tedln View Post
Sharon,

I have successfully grown vegetables for many years in many different sizes of containers with nothing more than a 70/30 mix of organics and sandy soil. A "guru" on a different forum became very angry with me for suggesting the "gritty" mix isn't necessary. I'm sure it is a good product, but so is organics and dirt. I see no reason to drive all over the country looking for pine bark fines, turpice, and all the other stuff he uses in his mix. I certainly wouldn't want to dissuade you from using it, but dirt works fine. The organics I mix with the sandy soil can range from garden compost to purchased bags of organics. You may need to add some fertilizer and minerals, but I believe the "gritty mix" needed fertilizer as well.

I would be happy to compare what I grow this year in my "natural" soil to anything grown in "gritty mix".

Ted
Agreed!

Organic Soil mixes are cheap and easy and grow the BEST container tomatoes.

Base Mix:
1 part Sphagnum Peat Moss
1 part Compost or Earth Worm Castings
1 Part Aeration amendment like pummice, turface, scoria, perlite, vermiculite, rice hulls, calcined clay...a mix of different sized material is best

Mineral Mix: I use Gypsum or CalSul sold at feed store in 50lb bags for $9 4 Cups per Cubic Foot

Nutrients:

I like Kelp Meal, Fish Bone Meal, Fish Meal, Crab Meal, Neem Meal.... Etc. Use what you have.

1 Cup per Cubic foot.

Mix and moisten then let rest for at least 2 weeks unless you added a lot of hot nutrients like Alfalfa meal etc. then let sit at least 1 month.

BAM! Best tomatoes ever, water only the whole way.

No need to compare. Soil will crush the "gritty mix" Just not that Miracle Grow soil haha
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Old April 6, 2013   #5
SharonRossy
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Thanks a million. That makes me feel better. Any thoughts as to what`s better - perlite or vermicullite? I've read various reviews saying perlite is better. Also, the grow bags - or whatever they are called? Any experience with them?
Sharon
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Old April 6, 2013   #6
MileHighGuy
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Thanks a million. That makes me feel better. Any thoughts as to what`s better - perlite or vermicullite? I've read various reviews saying perlite is better. Also, the grow bags - or whatever they are called? Any experience with them?
Sharon
I prefer the Smart Pots or dirt bags. They will breathe better but they tend to need a watering more often. Mulching the top of the container helps it keep moisture in and also keeps the top of the container "alive" and that is normally where the rizosphere is.

Vermiculite is usually smaller. Perlite is fine but it tends to "rise to the top" over time and doesn't stay put. I believe that it is used in soil mixes because it is the cheapest to ship.

I LOVE lava rock. Go to a Landscape supply place and I can usually get a 5 gallon bucket for a few bucks. They lava rock is porous and allows for good aeration and good microbe houses.

All in all, don't worry to much about this, get what is cheap and locally available.

Lately I've been making "Bio-Char" for my containers as it helps with long term nutrient availability and also aeration. There are some very affordable places to find bio-char.... probably even in your grocery store.

Ask away, if you decide you want to try bio-char.
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Old April 6, 2013   #7
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Originally Posted by SharonRossy View Post
Thanks a million. That makes me feel better. Any thoughts as to what`s better - perlite or vermicullite? I've read various reviews saying perlite is better. Also, the grow bags - or whatever they are called? Any experience with them?
Sharon
Sharon,

Since I don't use perlite or vermiculite in any of my containers, I can't comment on them.

I've also never used grow bags, but a lot of people do use them with good success.

I wanted to enlarge my containers this year so I have fifteen, twenty five gallon containers. If I had to purchase enough of the "specialty" materials to fill them, I would have required a second mortgage on my home in order to afford it. In the spirit of being "earth friendly", my new containers are recycled from their original purpose of holding minerals for cattle. They are very tough, durable, and cheap at $2.00 each.

You can go organic if you choose, and use the fertilizer of your choice to remain organic. As far as I know, dirt (with lots of sand) is still considered organic. I see the term "organic" on bags of organic materials at all the big box stores. I just look for the cheapest.

Here are my containers. They are now full and growing peppers, flowers, herbs, tomatoes, eggplant, and other things as well.

Gardening is supposed to be fun. Don't let people stress you out over the little things. Do those things which make sense to you. If you make a mistake, don't worry about it. You can always try again later.



This is a photo of the same containers taken today, filled with soil; and planted with a variety of plants. The plants are still young and small but the tomatoes and peppers will be taller than my head by summers end.



and five more of the large containers planted with fig trees, blue berries, flowers, and even a Gardenia tree using the same "natural" soil.



Ted

Last edited by tedln; April 6, 2013 at 03:54 PM.
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Old April 6, 2013   #8
MileHighGuy
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If I had to purchase enough of the "specialty" materials to fill them, I would have required a second mortgage on my home in order to afford it
Yeah, that specialty stuff can be expensive... but I was never a fan of specialty stuff. You can locally source ingredients for free, but it takes time. The right soil mix in a container can be much tastier and higher yield. I like trying new things as much as the next guy, but when you require the food to live on, you can't just guess and try again next year. It has to be done right the first time.

In my opinion and most gardeners, it's all about the compost.

Compost can be cheap but you have to plan ahead.

The Soil Mix that I described above works wonderful for tomatoes and is very cheap.

For all of those containers it would cost about $150.00 to fill them to the brim.... and that's with buying the compost. That's cheaper than bagged soil and can be re-used next year so long as you leave room for a good top dress.

Those 25 Gallon containers you have are awesome! Where did you find them so cheap? At a feed store... or from a farmer?

Thanks!
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Old April 6, 2013   #9
SharonRossy
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Wow, thanks for the info. The lava rock I think we used to get here, called Profile but has been unavailable for awhile. You've given me some good advice. Container gardening is always a balance of nutrients, and watering, ... It's true, it can cost a fortune by the time it's all said and done. We have a short growing season in Montreal and I need to make the most of out of it. Right now it's pretty cold. Anyways, you've given me a lot to think about. I have always used container mix, organic and added my amendments, so thats' a decision I'll have to make.
Sharon
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Old April 6, 2013   #10
tedln
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Originally Posted by MileHighGuy View Post
Yeah, that specialty stuff can be expensive... but I was never a fan of specialty stuff. You can locally source ingredients for free, but it takes time. The right soil mix in a container can be much tastier and higher yield. I like trying new things as much as the next guy, but when you require the food to live on, you can't just guess and try again next year. It has to be done right the first time.

In my opinion and most gardeners, it's all about the compost.

Compost can be cheap but you have to plan ahead.

The Soil Mix that I described above works wonderful for tomatoes and is very cheap.

For all of those containers it would cost about $150.00 to fill them to the brim.... and that's with buying the compost. That's cheaper than bagged soil and can be re-used next year so long as you leave room for a good top dress.

Those 25 Gallon containers you have are awesome! Where did you find them so cheap? At a feed store... or from a farmer?

Thanks!
I understand how some folks use food from their gardens to supplement their nutritional needs. I also work as a volunteer in a fifteen acre community garden which supplies food to many local charities. My difficulty is the fact that if you use all the expensive products many folks recommend, it would probably be cheaper to just buy the food. I grow 90% of my plants from seed. About the only plants I purchase are herbs. With simple plants costing over $3.00 dollars each at the big box stores this year, the plants alone are pretty expensive. I've planted forty tomato plants. Those alone would have cost over $100.00

I really like your idea of using volcanic pumice in the mix. I haven't, but may in the future. My minerals in the mix come from Ironite (inexpensive), epson salt (inexpensive), and some years; dried molasses. I do use the alfalfa pellets in my raised beds, but not in my containers. I just mix everything up in a wheel barrow with a shovel until it looks right and shovel it from the wheel barrow into the containers. I looked up the gallon to cubic foot conversion earlier and I think 25 gallons was equal to three cubic feet. I don't think I spent over $100.00 to fill all fifteen containers including the container cost. The soil in the containers will compress some and when it is down about six inches, I will fill then with pine bark nuggets as mulch. As they decompose over the summer and winter, they will add organics to the soil and slow evaporation in the heat. I drilled drain holes about two inches up the sides from the bottoms, but since they are drip irrigated; I can control soil moisture by resetting the timer as the plants grow.

I got the pots from my local feed store whose owner also raises cattle. He just stacks them up after the cattle empty them. Some ranchers simply burn them to get rid of them. I would imagine most feed stores sell them full of minerals/molasses mix. Some probably save the empties. Most nurseries also sell them with large trees in them, but they never seem to get any back after planting the trees. It may be the fact that they prefer to sell smaller, pretty containers for a lot more money than sell the empty tree pots for less.

Ted

Last edited by tedln; April 6, 2013 at 05:41 PM.
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Old April 7, 2013   #11
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Hey Milehighguy,

I just noticed you are in Montrose. We ride our ATV in your area every year when it is hot in Texas. I envy you for where you live but you also face a totally different set of gardening difficulties than I do. With your short season, you need to almost jump start your plants every year. The last time we were riding in Colorado, I was reading a local newspaper that had a lot of tips on how to maximize the available growing time. It was interesting. In north Texas, I prefer to grow stuff slow and steady in the spring and fall. Good luck with your garden.

Ted
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Old April 7, 2013   #12
MileHighGuy
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Thanks for the info on the containers.... and I certainly agree about the use of some of these expensive products. I really believe that most of that crap is only able to be sold because of some ignorant pot growers that will pay any price tag.

Alfalfa meal has a big kick, sometimes I'll just bubble some in a bucket for a couple of days and then water with it, but it is really strong.

My favorite has been kelp meal, I just love the stuff.

But other than that, I think it's also a little ridiculous to import something from the ocean to use in the soil out here haha.

I'm going to order some bocking 14 comfrey this year and grow my own fertilizer. That along with lot's of stinging nettle and some other dynamic accumulators I think i'll be good to go for next year without buying anything.

This year I'm getting my worm bins up and running and that is exciting!

This area is absolutely beautiful but the growing season is much shorter. I start everything indoors and next year I want to have a commercial greenhouse to grow year round... but they are soooo expensive, I'll have to take a loan.... and I don't like payments on anything.
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