Potato berries and TPS (true potato seed)

[feldon30]

Originally Posted by Tom Wagner

If you don't use TSP, you won't get it off, and the seed will take forever or longer to germinate.

How many minutes do you soak the extracted seeds in TSP?

Have you had success with Oxyclean? TSP is not available everywhere. Oxyclean has given me 100% germination (literally 100 out of 100 seeds sown of a dozen different varieties treated with TSP came up ~ the seeds practically burst from the soil) so far on tomato seeds and the entire process takes 30 minutes.

Originally Posted by Tom Wagner

Copy? Why? I believe these threads go on for quite a while.

Sometimes the best way to write a gardening guide on a specific topic is to start a thread with some initial ideas and outline and then facts and techniques come up and get confirmed (or dispelled) over the course of the thread. That brainstorming thread can then be distilled down to a fact-filled, well-researched article or how-to guide. A forum topic is a great way to elicit a discussion, get viewpoints, and flesh out an idea. But when you're in gardening mode, it is disadvantageous to have to read a 12 page topic to remember all the key points you are supposed to remember.

[Tom Wagner]

1. Yes, I have used Oxyclean. It does work to a great degree, but I find TSP better for cleaning for different reasons.
2. Oxyclean foams more than TSP, and the rinsing is more laborious with the foam created.
3. TSP makes a yellowish water slurry, which is an indication of the work being done.
4. TSP is well documented for seed cleaning, especially in con★★★★★★★★ with the hot water treatment and chlorine bleaching.
5. I like to grow organic, but I am not a stickler when chemicals do a job that is superior to other methods in cleaning seed.
6. The temperature of the water when using TSP is important as warmer water 120 F hastens the work of TSP and the demands of 30 minutes treatment is lessened.
7. Soaking in the TSP takes longer than an abrasive cleaning action.
8. Writing a comprehensive how to is difficult, because as this thread demonstrates, there are always a few points I leave out and someone still has questions involving yet another definitive procedure but humorous language is needed in ample doses to bring the points home.
9. I suppose a Sticky post of my summary, subject to repeated re-edits could be of some use. This would be an important feature of my potential upcoming book on potatoes.
10. A "How to Save Potato Seed From Berries" is bound to be hard to do in one take. The dry technical basis would be boring to some. A humorous rendition would be too flippant. Too long would be confusing and too short would be confusing. My guess, is that when I send this kind of thing to my editor, he/she will filter the information according to the projected audience.

[Raymondo]

Thanks again Tom. And thanks for the additional info Feldon. I'll go on a hunt for both TSP and OxyClean tomorrow. What percent solution do you use for OxyClean Feldon?

[feldon30]

1 tbsp to 1 cup of water.

[Raymondo]

Thank you Feldon!

[Tom Wagner]

I am an opinion checker. There, I’ve said it! Sometimes my opinions are set in granite, sometimes in quicksand, and sometimes in the head with me, myself and Irene! My opinions aren’t worth much most of the time, and often I go to others for their opinions. Now that is where my skills as a fact checker are challenged. With all the disinformation perpetuated by the drive by media, it is hard to ascertain the assertions of the news, which may include forums, books, scientific studies, newspapers, individuals, blogs, the Internet, and who has the ability to determine the veracity of information that may be correct or nearly so? It takes a lot of time to go through sources to even get close to a fact checker. I try at times to do quick and proper research, but there are subjects that just beg to differ with you and as a result become multi-year tasks.


The issue?

The use of TSP (trisodium phosphate) versus Oxi Clean.

I have been on record of favoring TSP in the use of cleaning tomato and potato seed in the (fresh) seed extraction methodologies. Of late some folks are proposing the use of Oxyclean or Oxi Clean as an alternative. Herein, I will attempt to dispense.

Sometimes there is so much confusion on the Internet that one must call manufacturers of products to clarify spellings of a material and its intended usage. I called the Melrose Chemical Company, which supplies Oxyclean. Their product, a liquid product used as a chlorinated cleaner contains:

• Potassium hydroxide (KOH), commonly known as caustic potash,
• Sodium hydroxide also known as lye, caustic soda
• Sodium hypochlorite, commonly known as bleach,

I called another company; Church & Dwight Co., Inc. that markets Oxi Clean. The OxiClean compound’s main ingredient is a powder, a solidified form of hydrogen peroxide and surfactants, or detergents The main ingredients are
1.sodium percarbonate,
2.soda ash
3.and some little blue grains, (causes suds to fight more stains)


Oxi Magic has
1.Clorox and
2.oxygen activators


The problem I have found is that different products with similar names abound. But for the issue at hand, note that Oxyclean is not Oxi Clean!!!

Do any of the manufacturers claim any of the chemical qualities of TSP? No!
Do any of the manufacturers claim Oxyclean or Oxi Clean in seed treatment use? No!
Oxyclean is likely not what people are using to clean seed. It is used in C.I.P. cleaning in food industries, especially in vessel cleaning. It is a liquid.

So what is this Oxi Clean powder? To wit:

Sodium percarbonate is a white crystalline water-soluble chemical compound of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide. It is an oxidizing agent and ingredient in a number of home and laundry cleaning products. Despite the name, it is, in fact, a carbonate perhydrate. Dissolved in water, it releases H2O2 and soda ash (sodium carbonate):

Since Oxi Clean doesn’t have a chlorine base, it is less harsh on your skin

• Making water wetter
• Making oil stains soluble in water
• Emulsifying oils
• Lifting stains off surfaces
• Hydrogen peroxide is at best a mild antiseptic and oxidizing agent, and bleaching agent. .
• H2O2 is not Na3PO4·12H2O (TSP)

Is Soda ash and hydrogen peroxide as powerful as TSP? No, not for cleaning fresh seed.
What are some of the methods to use when preparing fresh seed during and after extraction?

Ageing: It works wonders. Allow the seed to rest for a year or more before sowing. Less disease than freshly sown seed after extraction.

TSP dissolves the gel around the seed coat, lifts organic oils and the sprout inhibitor compounds, helps kill organisms on the surfaces and crevices. Any infected seed will be more likely to float off in the water rinsing. TSP is highly caustic, so wear rubber gloves.
Some seed in solanaceous crops such as potatoes, tomatoes and pepper, traded from folks not treating their seed may be soaked for 15 minutes in a 10% solution of trisodium phosphate followed by a 30 minutes soak in a 10% solution of household bleach as a disinfectant. I prefer to do this at seed extraction time, however.

Hot water treatment. About 122 F for about 20 minutes helps kill viral organisms in the seed endosperm.

Rinse and dry.

Trying to put a single treatise together when there is some disagreement on issues requires one to bring forth the research and belabor it a bit.

TSP is available in paint stores, but it does seem to disappear in some of the major outlets, especially if they are beset by liberal activists denouncing sales of phosphates. You can find TSP if you call around for it by name and insist on purity.

I care about the health of seed. I care about growing organically if I can. But TSP is indispensable to me as I want to ensure/insure seed quality, and allows me some peace of mind. The Tobacco Mosaic troubles of a decade ago and the oncoming onslaughts of contaminants will further convince me of the need.

Potatoes grown from true seed is in a microcosm of larger events. TSP is uniquely deserving as a seed primer.


Tom Wagner

[c8h10n4o2]

I used the fermentation method. I let the berries ripen to softness before squishing them up in a bowl of water and essentially letting the mess get rotten for a week. Then I followed with about 2 weeks of changing the water out and washing in running water over a screen until i had all the pulp removed and just seeds left. The first berries i squeezed the seeds out and let dry cemented so i just threw them back in the mix with the fermenting ones.

Since i was expecting low germination rates i overseeded ... WAY overseeded. I have hundreds of potato seedlings ... It looks more like alfalfa sprouts ... bummer with wasting so many. Hopefully its as good next time. I still have a ton of seeds. I extracted 36 of the small plants with chopsticks and filled a flat of pots. I am going to extract another 36 after i arrange a sunny spot for them as i am out of spots on the plant light rack with all the tomatoes and otherstuff taking up space.

[Tom Wagner]

I understand how fermentation works. However, I feel that for the fullest protection against soil born, seed born, endosperm born pathogens in potatoes, fermentation is not enough. I would be hesitant to ever receive true potato seed (TPS) from someone doing just that.

The beauty of growing potatoes from true seed is that one can escape the disorders that plague clonal tuber cuts. Fermentation by itself it not enough, otherwise we would just do our laundry by just fermenting them.

Tom Wagner

[feldon30]

You've probably said this before, but what is the longevity of TPS under typical storage conditions (70 degrees, 30% humidity)?

Also, forgive me if I have forgotten, but have you posted an outline on a timeline and steps for what is involved from seed to transplanting into the garden? I know you said starting TPS 6-8 weeks before planting.

[Tom Wagner]

True potato seed (TPS); I type out this phrase so often that I wonder if folks find it redundant? If I don't, I find that people misunderstand the term. Face it, most folks do a double take on the idea even with repeated statements.

Ideal conditions we don't have for storing seeds of potatoes. The Introduction stations have ideal storage and germination after nearly 50 years is possible. Homeowners only have what they have, so I would suggest not to be too optimistic after 5-8 years in storage. The whole idea of seed ia to sow/plant it year after year with just a few years of storage depending on your use and need of true potato seed.

Since I doubt mightily that anyone on this site will EVER do what I have done with potatoes, the point is rather irrelevant!

Trial and error is the teacher of growing potatoes from true seed. The fact that more people don't do this project is that there is precious little information on the Internet or in books that really goes into the depth about the process and what happens if you mess up.

Tom Wagner

[feldon30]

Ok, so what you're saying is that since potatoes are almost entirely a tuber-based business, few people have done the studies and testing necessary to say unequivocally that true potato seed (TPS) are viable for 5 years, 10 years, etc.

But you have some experience yourself, and you can speak to that and report your successes or failures and let people choose based on that. That's the only thing people seem to respond well to anyway.

I figure 5-8 years is fantastic storage for a home environment. That's well up there with tomato seed viability. I was just wondering if we were talking something closer to 1-2 years (beans, watermelon) or 2-4 years (sweet peppers).

If TPS were to take off, then people will accept any information, even if it's bad information. So putting something out there and refining it later is perfectly acceptable. It is the nature of scientific progress.

[c8h10n4o2]

Well clearly i was outlining what i did. I'm glad you understand how fermentation works Tom, i figured you did, but how do you know what i actually did if i dont say it. Or is it you dont care because you dont espouse the method. I think you would be suspicious of any seed you didnt produce yourself, I just get that feel reading your posts.

I understand your point about the pathogens Tom. Pathogens are probably way harder to get rid of once you get them. When a person has never seen a potato pathogen its easy to start to believe they don't exist. Yes i know that sounds a bit silly but its an experiential head in the sand (anti) logic.

Tom, Do you, happen to have some references, book, web, etc i can use to convince myself its necessary? I've come accross plenty of self made rituals and am wary of such things that i can't check myself. Seems if this is true i will want to start treating other seeds i save as well and i'm going to need to get more detail than this forum is probly going to stand .

So far all i've found is using TSP to remove seed coatings and not much on that. I've found a ton on potato/tomato diseases and yea i'm convinced they occur even if i havent ever been plagued by any myself. Pretty much everything mentioned says prevent with certified seed tubers or post disease plant destruction. Which diseases pass by seed? Is there some reference i can get on this where i can check other types of seed as well. Is there some study comparing different treatment methods amybe listing % chance of x y or z slipping through? Or have i delved off into masters and phd theses yet needing to be done?

I'm glad to know i can still treat my my seeds and reduce the threat of potential pathogens. But even then i dont see a guarantee just a reduction. I'm hoping for now i just stay lucky till i learn the methods and knowlege to be sure.

[Tom Wagner]

Sometimes it is a burden to be by your self in a discipline that is largely ignored by professionals who are working at research stations and have their own established protocol. It is even more of a burden to be misunderstood by a populace who fancy themselves as experts in things tomatoes, but are baffled when it comes to growing potatoes from true seed.

Pathologists in potatoes might as well hate me. They feel anyone growing potatoes without the ingrained demand that all potatoes be planted with certified seed (tubers). Anything that smacks them as being amateurish, such as saving tubers from year to year is tantamount to being the reincarnation of “Typhoid Mary!” These so-called experts feel unhinged pleasure in making sure that I am “isolated” from the potato industry. These same experts are the ones that claim a disease may have spread from a grower like myself into the commercial fields. The sense of disambiguation on the experts’ part means I have to try harder just to make sure I am not the problem; but the solution.

I grow certified seed potatoes and the potatoes pass inspection. I breed potatoes from potatoes that I have brought in as seed potatoes, meristem plantlets, 1st year seedling tuber families, tiny tubers from quarantined plantlets, true seed from other organizations, from my own crosses, from multi-year crosses of seed-to-seed lines; therefore, I take great pains not to bring in something that is obviously infected with pathogens. There are a few lines that I have kept going for a number of years, and in those clones I rigorously rouge out infected plants and tubers.

So why am I such a stickler on effective potato berry extraction of true seed (TPS)? It is my way of demonstrating the obvious pains of keeping disease out of my potato lines. Since I have been a grower, a potato buyer for Frito-Lay during the late 60’s and early 70’s, a potato warehouse manager, a fieldsman, a variety coordinator with growers, potato trials consultant, variety cooperator with the USDA and many Universities, a breeder, a seedsman--you get the point? It is almost like I have been there, done that in all thing potatoes! This does not count all the jobs I have had in the tomato world.

Seed treatment of potato seed is close to my heart and to my scientific bent. But I treat the practice of growing potatoes as an art that was honed by 55 years of doing so many things related to the plant. Growing true seed that is nearly clear of any disease is acceptable to the general ag world, but I prefer to grow as a quarantine officer would operate. My abhorrence of fermenting seed only in potatoes comes from all of the experiences I have just mentioned. It just is not effective enough for me to secure clean potatoes from TPS. My experience in potatoes greatly affects my concept of tomato seed extraction. That people rely on fermentation to rid pathogens in tomato seed extraction, frankly, scares the …. Out of me!!! So forgive me if I think in a rather negative way if folks don’t do the potato seed extraction correctly in my opinion deriving from my experience.

Later, I will expound on the literature's support for my methods of seed extraction and why.

Tom Wagner

[c8h10n4o2]

Thanks, Tom that makes a lot of sense to me too. I have seen a lot of ambiguous and wrong information. Someday i would like to move into seed production myself. All the experimenting i've been doing is to learn. Aside from journal articles i havent seen much on potato seed. I dont get enough time in the university library. I look forward to any literature you can steer me to.

--Ray

[Wi-sunflower]

I was pointed to this thread after PMing my own method for saving tomato seed. I had been reluctant to share my method here as so many members seem to swear by the fermentation method. Personally I swear at it as it has never worked for me.

Following is how I save tomato seed ---

I usually plant 20-70+ plants of each variety and pick from the whole section, avoiding maybe the end plants if they've grown into the next section. I feel I get a good representation of whatever the variety is supposed to be like that way. I'm also able to see if any of my hybrid grow-outs are segregating or not.

I have never had good luck fermenting tomato seed at all. Way back when over 10 years ago when I first tried saving I did ferment seeds but only got a 5-10% germination rate. Awful. So I didn't bother with tomatoes for a few years.

I've been doing hot peppers tho for many years with a method of my own and about 5 years ago adapted that for tomatoes.

Basically its a 5 gal bucket and a paint mixer on a drill and lots of water. Put about 1 gal of tomatoes in the bucket and enough water to fill to about 3 gal. Mix and more mix. Add water and drain this first blend into a large strainer.

I catch everything in a large strainer on the first blend as a lot of the good seed isn't mixed up enough to lose enough plup to sink.

Put the pulp back into the bucket and mix some more. This time you can start carefully pouring off the pulp that floats after letting it sit for about 30 seconds or so for the seeds to sink.

Do this 3-5 or more times til the water is clear and most of the tomato pulp/skin is gone. Add some bleach and a bit of water to disinfect the seeds. Let sit a few minutes. Add more water and drain into a wire sieve, rinse some more, and then put on a plate.

For larger amounts like I do, I don't use solid plates any more as I lost seeds when they sat in too much water for more than a day and started germinating even tho they were drained. I've made various sized "plates" out of plastic replacement screening hot glued to a ring of 5/8 " foam "caulk filler". The plates are set on a wire rack shelf so they get air all around and dry FAST. I also have a small fan in the room to circulate the air all around.

I do all of this out in the barn with only cold water as there isn't a water heater out there. We have an old large sink that sits over the cow gutter. It drains directly into the gutter. If I do it in the house, my drains get clogged right away. The drying is in a small upstairs bedroom where I can keep the door closed so the cats don't spill/mix up the seeds.

When I started doing my pepper seed saving, there were plenty of university bulletins out that advised against using "amature" seed as disease could be a problem.

While my method isn't as vigorous as Tom's, personally I haven't seen much if any disease in my own saved seed. In fact if I have any problem at all in my greenhouse, it usually started in plants from commercially purchased seed. That has especially been the case with Bacterial Spot/Speck.

For me, I'm processing 3-5 gallons of tomatoes / variety and I can do a bucket in about an hour +- and get 1-3+ ounces of seed when it's dry. I get 90-100% germination now and the seed is usually good for 3-5+ years.

My understanding of the fermentation method is that it's used mainly to get the gel sack off the seeds. I've found that the agitation from the mixer blender does that fine. For small amounts instead of a lage bucket and the drill mixer, I use a tall container and a hand "imersion" blender. Handier than a big blender and it doesn't go fast enough that I have to worry about possibly cutting up the seeds.

As far as the fermentation killing disease, that never made sense to me either. I also have a science background and I worked in a quality control lab for Campbell's for 8 years right out of high school before I married a farmer.

I'm not trying to tell anyone how they should save their seed, just that there are other ways it can be done other than just by fermentation. Do what ever you are comfortable with and works well for you.