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Old February 15, 2017   #166
BigVanVader
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Ok I did 7 more grafts tonight. Bill you were correct, I needed all the sizes of clips besides 2.8. the 1.5 mm are great for the smaller seedlings. Apparently I only had 2.0 before. Now I have 4 sizes. Anyway I feel like these were much better, several higher up, and I had plenty of scions to choose from. Here are a few pics.
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Old February 15, 2017   #167
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Advice of many is to leave it on until it falls off on its own.
Good advice. You can just wait till the stem gets so large that it looks like the clip is nearly ready to pop off and then just remove it then. I usually make sure the clips are off before I set plants into the garden. I give them plenty of time to harden off so there is no doubt that they are ready to have any clips that haven't fallen off removed at that time.

Another point is I prefer to let the grafted plant get a good bit larger before putting it out in the garden so that it is easy to clip it to some support and in my case that is a drop line. Even a well healed graft can sometimes separate if it is put out by itself too soon in the strong winds of spring. The graft ★★★★★★★★ seems to remain a weak spot on the plant for a few weeks after it has been set out. Eventually it is as tough as the rest of the stalk but I think it takes a little weathering to get it to that point.

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Old February 15, 2017   #168
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Good advice. You can just wait till the stem gets so large that it looks like the clip is nearly ready to pop off and then just remove it then. I usually make sure the clips are off before I set plants into the garden. I give them plenty of time to harden off so there is no doubt that they are ready to have any clips that haven't fallen off removed at that time.

Another point is I prefer to let the grafted plant get a good bit larger before putting it out in the garden so that it is easy to clip it to some support and in my case that is a drop line. Even a well healed graft can sometimes separate if it is put out by itself too soon in the strong winds of spring. The graft ★★★★★★★★ seems to remain a weak spot on the plant for a few weeks after it has been set out. Eventually it is as tough as the rest of the stalk but I think it takes a little weathering to get it to that point.

Bill
Thanks. Advice is well taken.
My clip is home made and has no/little gripping force. It is this thing that goes over dishwasher wires. . That is what I had.
It is just a soft tube that I cut a slit length wise on it. Probably it will just pop open on its own.
I will just leave it there for now.
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Old February 16, 2017   #169
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I think I will try to use up the remaining root stock seedlings today. I have had more requests for my grafted plants than I expected and if I can I would like more people to find out just how good heirlooms are. Around here growing heirlooms is nearly impossible or at least to keep one alive long enough to get a decent mess of tomatoes is nearly impossible. People try heirlooms all the time and love the flavor but are disappointed when they get so few fruits and have such unhealthy vines that live such a short time. I have the extra seedlings that I don't need so why not spread the word a bit more if I can about the benefits of grafted heirloom plants. I used to give away a lot of heirlooms that I had left over but no more. Too many people were disappointed with their poor performance in our climate.

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Old February 16, 2017   #170
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I'm doing a timeline reality check as I'm getting a bit anxious about when to start seeds for grafting. Starting a week or so too early would be okay, but a week or two too late would pretty much cancel my season due to a two week trip planned for June--goal is to have plants in the ground two weeks before departure.

Looking at my dates from last year for the different stages, and factoring in grafting and healing, does this look about right for planning purposes?

Seed to Germination - 1 week

Germination to Grafting - 2 weeks

Healing Chamber - 2 weeks

Growth to Up-potting - 4 weeks

Up-potting to Hardening - 2 weeks

Hardening to Plant out - 1 week
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Old February 16, 2017   #171
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I'm doing a timeline reality check as I'm getting a bit anxious about when to start seeds for grafting. Starting a week or so too early would be okay, but a week or two too late would pretty much cancel my season due to a two week trip planned for June--goal is to have plants in the ground two weeks before departure.

Looking at my dates from last year for the different stages, and factoring in grafting and healing, does this look about right for planning purposes?

Seed to Germination - 1 week

Germination to Grafting - 2 weeks

Healing Chamber - 2 weeks

Growth to Up-potting - 4 weeks

Up-potting to Hardening - 2 weeks

Hardening to Plant out - 1 week
Seems a bit long to me overall. I started my seed on December 23 and did my first grafts on the 31st of January but it takes them longer to grow then but you seem a bit short on the timeline for that stage. I don't think you will need anymore than 7 to 10 days in the healing chamber. I will be potting up my first batch today so they only took a bit over two weeks after grafting day to get sturdy enough to handle a bit although longer is better. I will start hardening them off tomorrow but they have already undergone some hardening before being potted up because as soon as I could after the healing chamber I put them outside in partial shade and then into full sun. The time it takes them to get large enough to place in the garden is dependent on the warmth and how fast they grow; but usually two to three weeks is sufficient.
Go ahead and start your seed with your original time frame in mind and keep up with it and you will better know how to judge it next year. There should not be a big problem if the plants have to wait a week or two to go into the garden. The larger plants will just be easier to handle and less likely to break after the longer hardening off process.

You are allowing 12 weeks for yours to go from seeding to plant out. I think 10 weeks is closer to what mine will take on average. My first batch of grafts should be ready in just about 9 weeks but my second and third will be ready in about 10 weeks and my last couple of batches should be ready in 11 weeks. Your climate and conditions will make some difference. My next batch of seeds I planted will probably be on a faster time frame as the temperatures go up and the speed with which tomatoes grow increases dramatically.

Bill
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Old February 16, 2017   #172
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Thanks Bill.

The Germination to Grafting was the stage I was most concerned with. Since it's winter here, early growth will also be slower. I'll adjust start time based on your experience.

Also, growth after healing will be slow as they will be under lights in my cooler basement, so I feel better giving them at least four weeks before up-potting. Once potted up, it will have warmed up and they tend to take off pretty quickly, especially with the massive root systems they develop while growing in DE.

How does this look now for approximate times?

Seed to Germination - 1 week

Germination to Grafting - 4 weeks

Healing Chamber - 1+ weeks

Growth to Up-potting - 4 weeks

Up-potting to Hardening - 2 weeks

Hardening to Plant out - 1 week
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Old February 16, 2017   #173
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Originally Posted by Father'sDaughter View Post
Thanks Bill.

The Germination to Grafting was the stage I was most concerned with. Since it's winter here, early growth will also be slower. I'll adjust start time based on your experience.

Also, growth after healing will be slow as they will be under lights in my cooler basement, so I feel better giving them at least four weeks before up-potting. Once potted up, it will have warmed up and they tend to take off pretty quickly, especially with the massive root systems they develop while growing in DE.

How does this look now for approximate times?

Seed to Germination - 1 week

Germination to Grafting - 4 weeks

Healing Chamber - 1+ weeks

Growth to Up-potting - 4 weeks

Up-potting to Hardening - 2 weeks

Hardening to Plant out - 1 week
I also think your time line is overextended.
Most conventional non grafting is 6-8 weeks from sowing to plant out. That also include hardening off.
Since grafting slows down growth, I will add 2 weeks to compensate foor that. So then 8 to 10 weeks sounds good to me.
my grafted plant is not that far behind its non grafted counter part (Ananas Noire ). It is almost the same height but the stem is not as thick. But it is moving and pushing the tube open.
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Old February 16, 2017   #174
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My conventional seed starting time with my indoor growing conditions and in my zone, is 10 to 12 weeks from seed drop to plant out. This is the timeline I've been using for years now and I set out good sized, stocky plants that can withstand the occasional late May/early June cool overnight temps.

If, as you say, grafting adds an average of two weeks, then my proposed 13 week timeline for grafting should work.
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Old February 17, 2017   #175
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Originally Posted by Father'sDaughter View Post
My conventional seed starting time with my indoor growing conditions and in my zone, is 10 to 12 weeks from seed drop to plant out. This is the timeline I've been using for years now and I set out good sized, stocky plants that can withstand the occasional late May/early June cool overnight temps.

If, as you say, grafting adds an average of two weeks, then my proposed 13 week timeline for grafting should work.
Well, you probably know your growing conditions better than anybody else.
But speaking from my experience 6 to 8 weeks is fine. I started my first batch on January 14th. Now on Feb. 17 (~5 weeks ) they are close to plant out size. Now I plan to keep them inside for another 2 to 3 weeks. I am afraid they might get too lanky. This is considering that I keep them at ~ 65F. It shows that they are a bit purple.
Also I might have to repot them into bigger pots

Another thing it that I think
probably smaller plants can cope better with cold than bigger plants !!
JMO
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Old February 17, 2017   #176
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My conventional seed starting time with my indoor growing conditions and in my zone, is 10 to 12 weeks from seed drop to plant out. This is the timeline I've been using for years now and I set out good sized, stocky plants that can withstand the occasional late May/early June cool overnight temps.

If, as you say, grafting adds an average of two weeks, then my proposed 13 week timeline for grafting should work.
I agree that you will be having slower growth with your growing conditions. I have mine in a greenhouse which gets up in the 80s most days and doesn't cool down inside below about 50 at night this time of the year and they are getting natural light in abundance. These conditions probably result in faster growing and tougher plants which will speed up my timeline. Like I said it is better to have larger plants to set out than smaller ones with the windy weather of spring as long as they are supported immediately.

You know your experience much better than I do so you should go with your gut feeling. The worst that will happen that way is you might be ready a bit earlier than anticipated and that shouldn't be a problem.

Bill
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Old February 17, 2017   #177
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I'd just like to thank everyone for sharing. I've so far been unable to get rootstock seeds here in New Zealand* but bought a badly-grafted tomato plant two years ago, grafted on Maxifort. The scion died and the Maxifort grew instead.

I've been keeping that one Maxifort plant alive ever since, taking cuttings and rooting them for use with side-grafting other scions with good success (and taking cuttings to serve as the new 'mother plant' as each gets too big to manage).

* It seems that today I may have finally sourced a manageable amount of rootstock seeds. Up until now suppliers say they only sell wholesale in lots of 10,000 but I found a supplier who has small 100 seed trial packs of DRO141TX that he's been selling to commercial nurseries trying to get them to change their rootstock. He said he'll let me have one for cost, NZ$38.60 plus tax plus shipping. Yay!

So it seems I might finally be able to attempt top grafting. I don't have the clips and have looked several times in several places over the last few years for them. Oh I can buy them but they also only come in lots of 10,000 - all one size. Hobbyist grafting hasn't taken off here yet.

I'm still awaiting payment instructions from the De Ruiter agent for the DRO141TX seeds but am hopeful the deal will go through. Then as it's late summer here I'll just have to wait about 6 months or so...

Cheers,
Shaun.

Last edited by 5haun5; February 17, 2017 at 04:19 AM.
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Old February 17, 2017   #178
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All of the above have affordable costs. Which ones would you buy?
Hi Fritz,

I haven't tried tube grafting yet but I use the red clips for side grafting (or approach grafting) with good success. I also have some of those last clips and may try those for tube grafting as I can't get the clips that everyone else is using either.

Oh, I found that the last clips have a moulding seam all around but also inside right where the rootstock and scion meet that can intrude into the gap quite a lot. I slipped one around a Dremel spiral cutting tool to trim the flashing out but it didn't work as well as I'd hoped.

Cheers,
Shaun.

Last edited by 5haun5; February 17, 2017 at 04:24 AM.
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Old February 17, 2017   #179
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I agree that you will be having slower growth with your growing conditions. I have mine in a greenhouse which gets up in the 80s most days and doesn't cool down inside below about 50 at night this time of the year and they are getting natural light in abundance. These conditions probably result in faster growing and tougher plants which will speed up my timeline. Like I said it is better to have larger plants to set out than smaller ones with the windy weather of spring as long as they are supported immediately.



You know your experience much better than I do so you should go with your gut feeling. The worst that will happen that way is you might be ready a bit earlier than anticipated and that shouldn't be a problem.



Bill


Thanks again! I'm going to go with the second version and will take notes for next year. As I said in my original post about my timeline, a week or two early isn't a bad thing and easily managed, whereas a week or two late would be disastrous for me. I would then be left with a choice between delaying or cancelling this year's trip, or not getting plants into the ground until the end of June.

My goal is always to set out large enough plants by Memorial Day that they can be immediately tied to a stake, and have two weeks of growth and additional tying up before we leave. Over the years I've I had the timing nailed down perfectly for conventional plants, but starting from scratch this year with grafting!
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Old February 17, 2017   #180
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I've been keeping that one Maxifort plant alive ever since, taking cuttings and rooting them for use with side-grafting other scions with good success (and taking cuttings to serve as the new 'mother plant' as each gets too big to manage).

Cheers,
Shaun.

Wow, that is a brilliant idea if you're able to keep the plant going year-round and aren't planning on a large number of plants! Not to mention all the money you could save by not having to buy so much rootstock seed every year.

A question -- is there a reason you can't use your rooted cuttings to top graft with? You mentioned having to wait to get the new rootstock seed to be able to try top grafting, so I'm just curious about the reason why.
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