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Old June 19, 2011   #31
WillysWoodPile
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Flea beetles, shiny black pinhead-size critters that hop like fleas when disturbed. They love potatoes and eggplant too.
Thanks BC.........
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Old July 19, 2011   #32
Sherry_AK
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I will admit the fruit of Moravsky Div looks just like Stupice. (Stupice on the left, Moravsky Div on right)
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Old July 19, 2011   #33
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Sherry, I thought the same thing last year. Couldn't really tell much difference between them, either by taste or appearance, plant or fruit. In the end, I decided I preferred the Stupice. Maybe out of loyalty because it's been such a good early for me for so many years, and the one MD plant I grew was kind of a runt and a few days later for me. Maybe I'll try it again in a pot instead of the ground some year, since so many people rave about it. Just didn't do it for me.
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Old July 19, 2011   #34
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At first, I thought the plants did not resemble one another much. Moravsky Div was a good bit shorter. By now though they are quite similar.
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Old July 19, 2011   #35
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I'm, er, confused by this long chain.

Have we determined that Moravsky Div is determinate or not?

Because mine is definitely NOT determinate. In the picture below, there is a yardstick at the bottom, showing that this plant is about 6 feet tall. It did not put out flowers all at once or even close to it - I am growing Danko, Heidi and another paste that are all determinate and I can see that they are both shorter and put out a bunch of flowers at one time (roughly).

So given that this plant is definitely indeterminate, do I in fact have Moravsky Div or some imposter?
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Old July 19, 2011   #36
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For what it's worth, my plant and fruit looks identical to yours and seem to be ripening in sync as well.
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Old July 20, 2011   #37
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My Moravsky Div is definitely determinate. It is about 2 feet tall, less than half the height and a third of the mass of my semideterminate Bloody Butcher. Then again, I grow in cages.

I see in your picture, Cleo, that you have your's trained to one stem up a stake so in that case I guess any determinate could reach 6 feet tall. I don't see much mass to it though so it probably is MD.
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Old July 20, 2011   #38
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Yeah, my MD doesn't have much mass to it, it's tall and skinny and looks like I pruned down to 1 stem but I didn't really - I didn't do much suckering at all. It just grew all Kate Moss on me, mostly. But many flowers. It's a bit of an odd plant. I can't imagine that it could have been 2 or even 3 feet tall under any circumstances, at least from the seed I have (and I can't remember where I got it!)

So is everyone saying that true MD is determinate, so that means I have something else???
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Old July 20, 2011   #39
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You may have gotten your seed from me, Cleo. I received mine from Gleckler - as did Marko who made the initial post in this thread.

I'm no expert on the subject, but I assume "determinate" can manifest in in different ways depending on variety, climate and culture. And, as Carolyn pointed out, if some determinates produce all summer long, what precisely determines () determinateness?


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Yeah, my MD doesn't have much mass to it, it's tall and skinny and looks like I pruned down to 1 stem but I didn't really - I didn't do much suckering at all. It just grew all Kate Moss on me, mostly. But many flowers. It's a bit of an odd plant. I can't imagine that it could have been 2 or even 3 feet tall under any circumstances, at least from the seed I have (and I can't remember where I got it!)

So is everyone saying that true MD is determinate, so that means I have something else???
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Old July 20, 2011   #40
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I thought that determinates have stems that end with flower clusters, and it was a pretty clear definition. The fact that determminates can continue all season has nothing to do with that, as more branches will come from the upper parts of the plant so it can grow continuosly.
The moravsky div I have is definitely the very typical indeterminate.
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Old July 20, 2011   #41
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Thanks zipcode - now I'll have to check-out my plant to see what I have!
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Old July 20, 2011   #42
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It is way too early in the season seeing it is only July 20 to say because the main stem hasn't developed a flower cluster yet at the end that a variety isn't determinate:

Determinate Growth: Growth determined and limited in time, with a bud or flower terminating the growth of the main axis. Once established, it is usually irreversible. Opposite: indeterminate growth.

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Old July 20, 2011   #43
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Counting the leaf nodes between flower trusses would surely settle it one way or the other? Unfortunately mine did not germinate this year so I cannot do the count myself.
MAF is correct. The way to determine whether a tomato vine is a determinate early in the season is to count the internodes between flower clusters.

Most tomato vines, whether determinate or indeterminate, will grow 5 to 7 internode spacings along the main stem before sending out a blossom cluster.

Determinates put out a new blossom cluster ever other internode, or every second internode after the first set. Indeterminates have 3 or more internodes between blossom clusters. This holds true for side shoots as well. The side shoot is no different than a main stem.

Not all determinates ripen all their fruit at one time. Celebrity is a determinate that exhibits longterm productivity. If it makes you feel better to call these fuller season determinates something like "semi-determinate" or "semi-indeterminate," go right ahead. But they are still determinate varieties.

The reason determinates set and ripen more fruit in a more concentrated fashion than indeterminates is really very simple. It's because there are only one or two internodes between fruit clusters, while on indeterminates there are 3 or more internodes between fruit sets. Makes sense, doesn't it?

If you want to know whether a variety is determinate, go out and count internode spacings between your flower sets
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Old July 20, 2011   #44
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This internode spacing is essential to know when you are selecting F2s for backcrossing to the determinate parent, because in hotter regions, you want to make those backcrosses early in the season. After a short while, it gets go hot to transfer viable pollen. And you cannot wait until the growing tips terminate, because by then, it's all over.

See, when you've crossed Indet. x Det., you're only going to get 25% Det. in the F2 block. So, you've got to identify the Det. F2s early on. That's done by counting the internodes between flower sets. Then when you've I.D.'d the determinate plants, you can backcross to the determinate parent, and capture more of the desired genes, if in fact that's what your shooting for.
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Old July 20, 2011   #45
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My Moravsky Div is fairly consistent: leaf, leaf, leaf, flower cluster.
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