Newbie here with deep horse trough container. Can it work?

[squirrel789]

Hello all,

I copied and reposted this from the "townhall" page, I hope that's OK because I wasn't sure how to move the thread (if that's even possible). I also edited a little.

Anyway, I'm a newbie to serious container gardening and am very curious to hear any feedback on my tomato method this year because it's a totally new experiment for me. Sorry for the long post, but I thought I should explain as many details as possible.

First of all, I love good, home-grown tomatoes more than any other vegetable. I've helped my dad grow around 120-150 tomato plants per year on his farm for the past 5-ish years (trying lots of different varieties). He always used his own, pretty standard methodology of trench planting, 2.5' to 3' spacing, cattle panel supports, and lots of cow manure and straw mulch. He didn't ever stray from his methods (which probably include a few superstitions too) because that's what he had always done, and he usually had pretty darn good yields. Unfortunately, now he is in his 80's and just can't keep up with the big farm gardens anymore, and I just can't do a big 100+ plant garden at his farm hours away by myself due to work and time restrictions... so I am stuck growing tomatoes at MY place this year.

I live in a space without a "real" garden spot. I have a big yard and land, but very little light as most of the place is all forest, and the only place I get the required amount of sunlight (6-8 hours) is on the back patio. I have successfully grown all sorts of flowers, interesting plants, herbs, greens, indeterminate cherry/salad tomatoes, and one or two patio varieties in big pots (usually around 6-8 gallons) the last several years with decent to good success. I used a vegetable MG potting mix and occasionally supplemented later with slow release MG tomato "shake n feed" with calcium added.

This year I am trying something completely different - my own tomato garden with the big indeterminate varieties I've always loved, but in a container on my patio. I've seen some excellent setups with buckets and string, but I had already bought the containers I'm using, so I'm trying to make them work.

I acquired two new 170 gallon Galvanized horse troughs, drilled a ton of good sized holes all over the bottom, and added heavy duty castors for (relatively) easy movement on the patio. As the patio is partially shaded, I figured making them movable could help them get the right amount of sun or shade, as needed, to grow but also avoid the sunscald that hot MO summers bring to plants with light foliage. Being 2' deep by 2' wide and 6' long, I am hoping I can grow the nice big, indeterminate vines my dad and I used to grow. The real experiment is whether I can grow the number of plants I want in this small space (again 170 gallons), and whether the 2 foot "soil" depth can provide adequate root space for the big double or maybe triple-vined plants I hope to achieve.

For the "soil" I made a growing medium from roughly 2 parts good, local nursery compost, 2 parts store-bought peat moss, and 1 part vermiculite, and mixed it pretty well. It's light, loose, and doesn't feel even remotely compacted like regular soil, even when drenched. Oh, and there's a thin layer of river rock on the very bottom to aid in drainage and a layer of weed guard to help prevent loss of the growing medium when I water. Also I mulched with cedar chunk mulch from the nursery, as I was told straw could cause weed issues.

So, here's the question. Given the details above and the planting strategy I will describing below, is this a viable project? Can I finally get a good yield of great-tasting indeterminate tomatoes from a giant container on the patio? Here's the basic strategy:

I planted a total of 8 plants in one container (varieties include cherokee purple, ultimate openers, better boy, jetstar, pink lady, and a golden jubilee). I planted them offset, meaning the plants aren't directly across from each other, but planted in a zig-zag pattern thinking it would give the plants a little more space. They are spaced pretty tight with plants not much more than a foot apart in this zig-zag pattern. I bought tall, healthy young starters grown at a local nursery, stripped off all the bottom leaves/branches and planted them straight down into the "soil" a good 14+ inches, with a nice healthy-looking 4 inch top sticking up out of the ground.

With with enough really good fertilizer, like the Urban Farms Texas Tomato Food I have read about here, a soaker-hose irrigation system on a timer, and meticulously careful pruning to keep them to two well-supported vertical vines per plant, is it possible I can hopefully make this work and actually get a good yield?

I have read about the square foot garden folks that grow huge single-vine plants in a single square foot, but most I've seen online look like they have barely any foliage. So, for greater yield and to reduce the chance of sunscald from sparse foliage, I was planning on two vertical vines (or more if possible).

I've installed what I hope is a good, stable vertical support system. I have what is basically a hog panel zig-zagged between the plants, some stakes stabilize the panel, and a network of twine. Also, I put one very tall stake around the middle, thinking that if this actually works and the vines grow tall, I can run more strings or attach some sort of additional support up higher. It's not the prettiest thing to look at, but all I care about are good tomatoes

I am pretty well-practiced at proper pruning techniques and have grown plants with usually 4 main vines (in the big garden at the farm), as well as some not pruned, crazy-tangled-all-over plants before, so I do have some experience with that part of it. Am I crazy, or can these bigger varieties grow so tightly packed together if fed and watered well enough, and with very careful pruning and support?

Any thoughts, criticisms or advice are very much appreciated. I have already learned much from reading through the forums, and I feel lucky to have Tomatoville as a resource! I plan to have these planters for while and so I hope to tweak the system over the coming years. Thanks!

I am taking lots of pics and would love to share if anyone is interested.

[bjbebs]

Squirrel
I too am new to growing tomatoes in containers, but have over 50 years of in-ground
experience. I think 8 indeterminates per tank might be pushing it. Even if pruned and given ample vertical support you will end up with a jungle. I've included a picture of a stock tank I'm using this year. It holds 3 dwarf tomatoes, a determinate and a couple
ornamental peppers and flowers.
My soil mix is horse manure, leaves, partly finished compost and a bit of garden soil.
I'll top this off next year with the spent soil from the many containers I'm using for tomatoes and peppers.
The other picture is of a few maters in the ground. Think about the depth and width
of soil given each plant. I don't think this can be duplicated in a container. How you add nutrients to your container plants will determine how they produce.
The only ferts my garden has seen in 30 years is manure and cover crops.
I don't know what i'll use in the containers if they show a deficiency.
Keep us posted on how your crop is doing and how your managing fertilizer needs.

[squirrel789]

@bjbebs

Thanks for the pics and the advice! I wish I could do an in-ground garden too! Your support system looks very well-made and pretty much ideal. It's similar to the cattle panels and fence posts we used at the farm, only we tied the vines to the panels and were missing your awesome, rounded cage systems.

I have no doubt though that the methods you're talking about and shown in your pics are superior, and the in-ground methods are similar to those I've used with my dad in the past with good success (but I must say your supports are much more awesome!). I just hope I'm not going to end up at the local farmers market paying premium $$$ for good-tasting tomatoes, after sinking my cash into a trough full of plants with little or no fruit :-).

I realize the plants in my trough are packed in there pretty tight, I was just hoping that I could find an optimal level of feeding/watering/pruning that could help overcome this. Is this even a viable concept? I am hoping some folks on this forum have perhaps tried similar experiments and would share their methodology and results concerning taste, yield, etc.

I've read many online articles and posts where people grow indeterminates in 5 gallon buckets mostly successfully with lots of quality fertilizer and medium to intensive pruning. I'm admittedly new and rather ignorant about container gardens, and I'm sure I'm leaving out a number of important factors, but shouldn't 8 plants be able to grow in 40 gallons of soil if it is the same depth/surface area as eight 5 gallon buckets? I have around 170 gallons in this bed, and it's at least as deep as a 5 gallon bucket would be. I feel like I must be missing something obvious in this comparison. I know "intensive" and "SFG" methods appear to be popular (based on you tube videos, and online articles) in urban areas, but I worry that the finished product just won't live up to the delicious, in-ground garden tomatoes I'm used to. Any contradictions to this fear would be very welcome and I would love to hear how you grow your tomatoes.

I will certainly keep this thread updated as the plants start to grow more and will post pics of my containers, from preparing them to their currently planted state, as soon as I can pull them off my phone.

Best of all, the appeal of having my tomatoes in my backyard where, after work, I can crack open a cold beverage, and get outside to closely work with the plants sounds extremely relaxing and appealing to me. Again, I'd love to hear if anyone has tried something similar and how it worked out for you.

As always thanks for your time!

[fonseca]

I would love a few 2x2x6 stock tanks. I have multiple 2x2x3 tanks, which hold 100 gallons. Fantastic for container growing and a better choice than plastic to have sitting in the sun. 2' depth is plenty for tomatoes IMO. Last year I carefully dug up one of my tanks to see how deep the tomato roots went. I didn't see many roots beyond 16", which isn't far considering I buried my plants 12" deep. One plant had roots all the way to the weed fabric layer 20" down and several feet along the bottom, so results may vary. All indeterminate heirlooms.

I allocate 20-25 gallons soil per plant. The photo below shows how I staggered 5 plants, which will be very crowded in a month. I will put basil and garlic chives or green onion in the corners, and stay on top of pruning. I limit each plant to 2 vines max. Your 8 plants will need a lot of trellis space and you may be watering daily by August, but it's doable. I am increasing my trellis size this year from 4' wide to 6' wide, and I expect to fill it.

I shed a tear every time I read that someone drilled holes in a new watertight tank. Stock tanks make the ultimate sub-irrigated containers. Think giant Earthbox. Of course, you wouldn't be able to move it with a reservoir in the bottom. That might also be too heavy for a deck. The 4" reservoir in my tanks holds about 20 gallons of water.

You don't need a gravel layer. Drainage is dependent on your soilless mix. Yours sounds good and will be superior to any of the brand name bagged potting soil you see in hardware stores. You can reuse the soil again next year, adding back peat and compost, and you might want to add one more part vermiculite depending on your results. Everyone has their own recipe, but I like to start with one third each: peat, compost and structure (vermiculite in this case). Look for coarse vermiculite if you can find it in 4 cubic foot bags. It's fantastic for container mixes.

[squirrel789]

Thanks! Your post is very encouraging, and I haven't seen many people here talking about stock tanks so I was afraid I made a bad choice for a container.

As for spacing, perhaps I got greedy with 8 plants, but all those square foot gardening articles and 5 gallon bucket methods I've read about made me wonder why this couldn't work, given enough nutrition and water. I planted 4 days ago and after the big initial soak, I've fed them with a basic 20-20-20 water soluble veggie fertilizer the next day. Not too much, as I am unfamiliar with proper fertilizing methods, but I thought it might help. I also bought some Texas Tomato Food (often recommended in this forum) for when blossoms start to form. Hopefully I can keep those roots happy despite being a bit crowded. I believe I will take your advice and stick to no more than 2 vines per plant.

As for the trellis, I may have to rethink mine. If you recommend 6 feet wide, I'm nowhere close to that. It admittedly doesn't look pretty, but the trellis I built with the panels, stakes and twine is very stable and I figured I could always tie more twine from an unruly vine to somewhere else on the trellis for additional support.

Your garden looks great and I wish you the best of luck! I'd be curious to hear if or how often you fertilize, as I know very little about it. I have read that much of it drains out with the watering.

Also, it's been raining here pretty much part of each day since I planted them, but when they are grown and it gets hot I was thinking about morning and evening watering with a soaker hose under the mulch with a timer. Any recommendations on how long to water, or should it be until water is draining out of the bottom holes? Sorry for all the questions, but I am finding this quite different than the in-ground stuff I've done before.

I'll try to attach a few pics. Again, the trellis may look awkward, but it was a first attempt , but I am hoping it gives me a starting point to which I can tie the vines and I hopefully can enlarge or improve it as needed. Perhaps I should think about replacing it, but I will need to do some more research first, or if anyone has advice, please don't hesitate to share :-). Again, this is my first foray into this type of gardening, so please forgive a newbies mistakes. With some more experience, and hopefully some advice from all the people growing the amazing-looking tomatoes I've seen on this site, I plan to continue to tweak this basic trough setup over the coming seasons. Since the troughs are movable on castors, it makes this type of container the best thing for the space I have, so I am really motivated to get it growing some good tomatoes.

Also the daytime pics were taken immediately after planting, so they were a little wilted until I gave them a good soaking.

Thanks!

[Ed of Somis]

S...I can tell you are serious about this! That is a good place to begin. First of all....your attention to using an airy/light potting mix is very wise. Free-draining mixes is a key element many miss. Ironically, many people use marbles, rocks, and broken glass on the bottom of their pots to facilitate drainage. It sounds logical...but there is no value. Just make sure you have plenty of drainage holes. Do not crowd your plants...they will get big! TTF fertilizer is one of many good ferts. It is best to fertilizer every third watering or so...using a dilute solution.

[squirrel789]

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the fertilizing advice! My TTF should arrive tomorrow and a couple of the the plants (already bigger now than in the posted pic) have started a few little flowers near the bottom. I assume I should never strip off flowers, even if relatively close to the mulch. Is that a safe assumption? I mean more flowers, more tomatoes right .

The plants are still relatively small (about a foot), but are starting to get a few flowers. When I planted them I put them a good 14" or so deep with just the top 4"s or so sticking out. Can I go ahead and start with the TTF as soon as I see flowers? Or should I use something more balanced until they grow taller? I was planning on starting to use the TTF as soon as I get it. Mostly just because it's like getting a new toy for my garden!

Any thoughts or suggestions are very appreciated. And a big thanks to all who take the time to respond!

[squirrel789]

Here are the flowers on these plants that seem very low to the ground. Granted, they were planted very deep vertically...

[fonseca]

Your tanks look great. I'm actually going to try pine bark mulch this weekend, because the squirrels love the easy digging in mine.

I will sometimes remove flowers, if I feel the plants are flowering due to too much time in a small container before planting out. This might encourage the plant to put its energy into growth instead of fruit early on. Others will say I am just reducing yield.

I grow organically, and amend the container mix in the spring. In theory my plants should have everything they need to get them through the season. I do still foliar feed fish and kelp a few times, and I use compost/casting teas. I have made mistakes in the past that reduced my harvest. Once you add organic fertilizer to your soilless mix, you can't get it out. If you're new to growing tomatoes, TTF is proven and reliable IMO, I would stick with that for your first season.

I grow in 5 gallon sub-irrigated buckets as well. I limit to a single vine or maybe 2 if it's a cultivar with low yield. Most indeterminate tomatoes need more soil volume than 5 gallons. I like using buckets because it lets me try a lot of different heirlooms with minimal work, and if I really like one, I will grow it in a 27 gallon container next year and get twice the tomato harvest.

How tall is your trellis? If you do an image search on google for "metal conduit trellis", you will see some good examples of tomato trellises. Metal conduit is inexpensive, and since you already have holes in your tanks, a few more won't hurt. You could attach one conduit to each end, securing it to the tank with pipe clamps and washers on the inside. I have seen photos online of 2x4s screwed into stock tanks for a wood trellis, with twine to support the vines. If yours is sturdy, I would just go with it and you could look at different designs for next year.

I'm using cattle panels, not attached to my tanks but sitting over them like a tent. The photo below shows one 4'x16' panel (cut into quarters) per tank. I added another 2'x16' "A-frame" section this year, so the trellis is 6' wide and 8' tall. 100 gallons of soil can support a lot of vegetation. I had a real busy couple of weeks last summer and got behind on pruning. The result below. The Achocha cucumber took over the container on the right. This year it's just tomatoes in each one.

[squirrel789]

Fonesca,

Thanks for the response and compliments!

The trellis is currently my main concern as it is only about 4.5' tall, but the middle support post is around 10' tall. If the plants really take off I had originally figured I'd just bring out the ladder and basically build it up higher with more panels and lots of garden twine using the center post for support. Your cattle panel system look great, and the plants look huge and healthy! I don't expect that kind of growth with my setup, but that's a great example to learn from!

After looking at some other, more organised trellis designs, as you described, I am thinking of perhaps using a taller string system with conduit or wood as you suggested, for when the vines outgrow the current system. I like using my drill, so more holes are not a problem I have never supported plants with just vertical string before, I've always woven through and tied them to cattle panels with cloth or twine. The single string method appears popular, but will it support the fruit clusters adequately? I guess most of my varieties are medium-sized tomatoes, no beefsteaks or anything, so maybe I'm just being paranoid.

When I first started, I wasn't sure if the plants would even make it to the top of the current trellis, but based on the largely positive feedback I've received so far, I am thinking I will have add some serious height. I was planning to prune them to 2 vines and keep them as tidy and spaced out as possible as they grow upwards to help with the airflow as others have suggested. Now I am wondering if a single vine is necessary. Of course, I'd like 2 vines and more tomatoes but not if it ruins the garden and causes diseases or fungus. Sun scald from the blazing hot Missouri summers also worries me with single vines though. Hmmm, something to think about.

I appreciate everyone's input, and please share more of your methods if you are willing. I will be using these containers exclusively for the next few years (besides a few pots and "tumbler" baskets), so I'd like to learn as much about you pro's do your container gardens as possible.

I will keep updating this thread as the garden progresses so I can keep a log of sorts and hopefully find the best way to utilize this system in subsequent years, and for others interested in this method. I am also taking lots of pics as the season progresses, so I there will be plenty more posted if anyone is interested. As always, thanks again to all that make this forum possible

[Stvrob]

I would have drilled the drainage holes on the sides, six inches or so above the bottom.

[squirrel789]

Originally Posted by Stvrob

I would have drilled the drainage holes on the sides, six inches or so above the bottom.

I guess it would be pointless to do so at this point?

I assume you mean that the bottom of the tank should actually hold around six inches of water/liquid fertilizer?

I thought containers should drain cleanly and not let the roots sit in water. Then again, I'm new to container tomato growing and am here to learn.

If it would be beneficial to have some water sitting in the bottom of the tank, I could always put a non-permeable membrane, like plastic, on the bottom next year.

I really want my garden to produce some quality 'maters this year, but realistically I want to learn how to improve it for future seasons too. I will be limited to using these containers for awhile. After all, I already own them and would like to learn to use them in the most efficient way possible. As for using different containers in the future, there's probably not much demand among horse farmers for my troughs that won't hold water

Thanks for the advice! I am curious about this idea though because many container posts recommend watering containers until they are draining out of the bottom. The TFF fertilizer I bought advises to do a complete cleansing rinse of the growing medium every 2 weeks. Would side drainage 6" high cause excess build up of salts or other minerals/compounds that are desirable only in small quantities?

I know I have a lot to learn, but am determined to grow the best tasting tomatoes I can in these large containers, hopefully with reasonably good yields. I love the farmers market, but decent tomatoes are so $$$$ expensive, and after being spoiled growing in-ground at the farm I used to have access to, I count on having some good summertime tomatoes and am determined to make this type of system work. Thanks again, I will look into this idea more.

[fonseca]

You might be interested in some of these blog posts. These are most of my still-working links to stock tanks used for gardening:

http://www.penick.net/digging/?p=1610

http://www.succulentsandmore.com/201...or-bamboo.html

http://www.penick.net/digging/?p=7566

http://caylawral.blogspot.co.uk/2010...to-finish.html

http://thinkingoutsidetheboxwood.blo...in-garden.html

http://thinkingoutsidetheboxwood.blo...ie-garden.html

http://twomenandalittlefarm.blogspot...vegetable.html

And a few links to my area of interest. Australian practitioners of permaculture have long used "wicking beds" for water efficiency, which can be as simple as a pond liner recessed in the ground with a wood or corrugated metal "raised bed" frame. Another take on sub-irrigation. I have seen a few "wicking worm beds" using stock tanks that are fully self-contained, but most use corrugated metal without a base:

http://www.resilience.org/stories/20...e-wicking-beds

http://www.milkwood.net/2010/05/11/h...a_wicking_bed/

http://permaculturewest.org.au/resou...cking-beds.pdf - PDF with diagram.

http://www.maireid.com/wickingbeds.html

Same principle as my sub-irrigated stock tanks. Since I have not modified my tanks, I could easily sell them for 75%+ of what I originally paid in, say, 5 years should the need arise. I have seen 10 year old leaky 300 gallon tanks sell immediately on Craigslist for $200, when you could buy a brand new one for $250. Go figure.

[squirrel789]

Originally Posted by fonseca

You might be interested in some of these blog posts. These are most of my still-working links to stock tanks used for gardening:

http://www.penick.net/digging/?p=1610

http://www.succulentsandmore.com/201...or-bamboo.html

http://www.penick.net/digging/?p=7566

http://caylawral.blogspot.co.uk/2010...to-finish.html

http://thinkingoutsidetheboxwood.blo...in-garden.html

http://thinkingoutsidetheboxwood.blo...ie-garden.html

http://twomenandalittlefarm.blogspot...vegetable.html

And a few links to my area of interest. Australian practitioners of permaculture have long used "wicking beds" for water efficiency, which can be as simple as a pond liner recessed in the ground with a wood or corrugated metal "raised bed" frame. Another take on sub-irrigation. I have seen a few "wicking worm beds" using stock tanks that are fully self-contained, but most use corrugated metal without a base:

http://www.resilience.org/stories/20...e-wicking-beds

http://www.milkwood.net/2010/05/11/h...a_wicking_bed/

http://permaculturewest.org.au/resou...cking-beds.pdf - PDF with diagram.

http://www.maireid.com/wickingbeds.html

Same principle as my sub-irrigated stock tanks. Since I have not modified my tanks, I could easily sell them for 75%+ of what I originally paid in, say, 5 years should the need arise. I have seen 10 year old leaky 300 gallon tanks sell immediately on Craigslist for $200, when you could buy a brand new one for $250. Go figure.

Thanks for the links, I can't wait to start reading my way through them as I get the time.

I wish I would have found this forum before making my setup, as I had never hear of self-wicking or the idea of reservoir tanks in the bottom of containers. I always thought containers should drain through when watered, but maybe that's just for the smaller-sized ones. I still don't really understand it all, but that's why I'm here.

I was just eager to start growing.

Thanks again, and I always welcome any advice or criticism. I hope to learn as much as I can here.

[Stvrob]

The holes in the bottom will be fine. Is the tub sitting directly on the ground?