Moravsky div not determinate?

[Marko]

This year I'm growing Moravsky Div for the first time and it definitely isn't determinate. According to my seed source (Gleckler) it should be determinate and other vendors list it as determinate too.
Now I'm questioning if my seeds are wrong or vendors just copy/paste one wrong description.

[ddsack]

Hmm. It wasn't determinate for me last year, in so far as it produced small tomatoes most of the summer instead of as one crop. However, it did have a very short stature and never even got the height of Stupice. I only grew the two plants one year, so maybe not enough data, but I was not that impressed with it.

[coloken]

Is it at least potato leaf? If not wrong seed.

[Marko]

Originally Posted by coloken

Is it at least potato leaf? If not wrong seed.

Yes, it is potato leaf and very similar in growth to Bloody Butcher.

[carolyn137]

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Moravsky_Div

The above just for review.

My original seeds from Andrey and yes, it was det and PL and a variety I like very much.

When you look at Tania's page for this variety you'll see three seed sources and I was the seed source to both Gleckler's and Jeff Casey's sites.

I'm pretty sure I also sent it to Glenn at Sandhill as well, but I don't see that listed at the above page and right now I don't know where my catalog is but, well, I just dug it out of the pile and yes Glenn lists it for 2011 and says he had ripe fruits in about 40 days from 4 inch transplants.

I like the taste of MDiv much better than Bloody Butcher, Stupice, Matina and other so called earlies that I've grown. Actually MUCH better and yield is wonderful as well. And it did produce well during the season which is true of quite a few det varieties.

[MrBig46]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Moravsky_Div

The above just for review.

My original seeds from Andrey and yes, it was det and PL and a variety I like very much.

When you look at Tania's page for this variety you'll see three seed sources and I was the seed source to both Gleckler's and Jeff Casey's sites.

I'm pretty sure I also sent it to Glenn at Sandhill as well, but I don't see that listed at the above page and right now I don't know where my catalog is but, well, I just dug it out of the pile and yes Glenn lists it for 2011 and says he had ripe fruits in about 40 days from 4 inch transplants.

I like the taste of MDiv much better than Bloody Butcher, Stupice, Matina and other so called earlies that I've grown. Actually MUCH better and yield is wonderful as well. And it did produce well during the season which is true of quite a few det varieties.

I am reading off this discusion again and I remember, that was one determinante tomato, which was moravian. Its name was Olomoucké nízké:
Olomouc -DC of Moravia ago 18. century
nízké- low
Crossing Self prunning x Niedriger Busch taken in 1954, taken off ??

and next
Vrbičanské nízké,crossing Stupice x Bellevue Bush taken in 1952, taken off ??
Vrbičany- they are two villages in CR, both in Czech
In definition, which I have, leaf both tomatoes isn´t
I shall atempt more.

[akgardengirl]

It is potato leaved.
Sue

[bcday]

I think Ken was asking if Marko's plant is potato-leaf.

Moravsky Div is supposed to be potato-leaf, so if Marko's plant isn't PL, it's not Moravsky Div.

There is one listing in the 2011 SSE Yearbook for an indet regular leaf Moravsky Div, but I think a mix-up must have happened somewhere with that. It shouldn't be regular leaf.

[Heritage]

Interesting... I grew it last year and it didn't occur to me that it might be determinate. I have it listed as an indeterminate.

I grew Moravsky Div and Stupice side-by-side last year and pruned both to a single stem. During the season I don't think I could have told the difference between the two plant habits. Both produced fruit early (Moravsky Div was 3 days earlier) and both produced a lot of tomatoes throughout the season. I didn't notice Moravsky Div stop producing, but I might have missed it because I was getting pretty busy and didn't take note of its late season production.

Carolyn was the first to list it in the SSE catalog so maybe she will chime in.

Steve

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by bcday

I think Ken was asking if Marko's plant is potato-leaf.

Moravsky Div is supposed to be potato-leaf, so if Marko's plant isn't PL, it's not Moravsky Div.

There is one listing in the 2011 SSE Yearbook for an indet regular leaf Moravsky Div, but I think a mix-up must have happened somewhere with that. It shouldn't be regular leaf.

I wonder if it really is a mix-up. Did you see who it was who listed it?

He spelled it the same as all those who listed it as det and PL, but his listing is separate from all the others which doesn't make sense to me unless he uploaded and wanted it to be separate ( see below) as indet and RL. And he said he got it from Andrey yet everyone else at Tania's page as well as in the Yearbook got det and PL.

I think he may be in the running to see how many total listings he can get, but again, why list Moravsky Div separately, his listing and everyone elses. it's rather well known that the more listings a peson has it usually means that they get more requests since only one SSE request form/one envelope is needed to request lots of varieties rather than sending separate request forms to several people, as I know you also know.

Just came back here to the computer to check the radar. I really would like to be able to sleep through a night without what they're calling severe T-storms.

[bcday]

Carolyn sent seeds for Moravsky Div to me in 2008 and also emailed what I believe was the description Andrey sent her. The description said, "Moravsky Div; Czech CV, semi-det, PL, early, hi yield, red 50 to70 gm fruits." But now Andrey's SSE listing (and almost everyone else's) says determinate, not semi-det

All of my determinate varieties were planted in containers in 2008. MDiv was not planted in containers, it was planted out in the garden, so apparently I did not expect it to be determinate. Unfortunately I don't seem to have a record of its plant habit other than to say that it was potato leaf. It did produce fruit abundantly until frost, however.

Marko, Andrey's SSE listing says he got the seeds from a Czech commercial seed company called Moravoseed. Considering where you are located, is it possible that you might be able to get more information from this company?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by bcday

Carolyn sent seeds for Moravsky Div to me in 2008 and also emailed what I believe was the description Andrey sent her. The description said, "Moravsky Div; Czech CV, semi-det, PL, early, hi yield, red 50 to70 gm fruits." But now Andrey's SSE listing (and almost everyone else's) says determinate, not semi-det

All of my determinate varieties were planted in containers in 2008. MDiv was not planted in containers, it was planted out in the garden, so apparently I did not expect it to be determinate. Unfortunately I don't seem to have a record of its plant habit other than to say that it was potato leaf. It did produce fruit abundantly until frost, however.

Marko, Andrey's SSE listing says he got the seeds from a Czech commercial seed company called Moravoseed. Considering where you are located, is it possible that you might be able to get more information from this company?

The last time I listed MD was in the 2010 SSE YEarbook so I took a look at that and in that listing Andrey, Suze, Bill M and myself all said det.

bcday, I can look at my original seed pack from Andrey but I do think that I'd e-mailed him about it when I first listed MD and perhaps back in 2008 he did say semi-det.

Det varieties should have terminal blossoms while indet varieties have subterminal blossoms but many folks, myself included, have often looked at just how long the vines are, how compact the plant is, I can't say how tall b'c I don't stake plants, I let them sprawl.

MD is a compact plant as I see it, not as compact as some others, but not a rambler either.

As long as the basic traits of the variety are met, as to fruit color and size and leaf form, etc., I tend to think it's OK. Some will desribe a variety as semi-indet and how does that differ from indet?

It does get a bit confusing at times, no doubt about it. But the folks I mentioned above, including Andrey himself, are all experienced growers so I'm OK with calling it either det OR semi=det.

The first year I listed MD was in 2009, seeds from Andrey in 2008 and in that 2009 listing I do say det and PL. When Andrey doesn't have the time to write much on a seed pack when it comes time for me to first SSE list one of his varieties I usually e-mail him for additional info. But bcday, I'm not sure where that semi-det came from when Andrey himself has consistently said det.

But as I said above, either det or semi-det is OK with me and I would hope others as well.

Andrey should know Moravoseed quite well b'c he's sent me quite a few varieties from that company as he has to others. But Marko, as bcday suggested, you can contact them to see what they say but that may not reflect the experiences of folks actually growing it, if you know what I mean.

[Douglas14]

I grew Moravsky Div last year from seeds Carolyn sent me. I grew two plants of it, and they grew about 2 to 2.5 feet tall I'm guessing. They were bigger plants than the lone Kimberly plant right next to them.

[zipcode]

I'm also growing Moravsky div in half a 10gal container this year. Seems like it's an indeterminate. Growing tip doesn't seem like like it will stop growing and flower clusters appear after each 3 leaves. Seeds from a very reliable source (M. Hahm).
So I guess some seed sources out there have the wrong thing already.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by zipcode

I'm also growing Moravsky div in half a 10gal container this year. Seems like it's an indeterminate. Growing tip doesn't seem like like it will stop growing and flower clusters appear after each 3 leaves. Seeds from a very reliable source (M. Hahm).
So I guess some seed sources out there have the wrong thing already.

As you know, Manfred sells seeds off Reinhard Kraft's website and Manfred would have gotten those seeds I assume from Andrey in Minsk, Belarus who got them from Moravoseed as a Czech variety or Manfred could have gotten his initial seed from Moravoseed itself. As I recall Manfred has gotten seeds from Andrey before.

In any case Manfred produces almost all of his seed that he sells himself.

The overwhelming number of folks who have grown MD as listed in the SSE YEarbook or from information from Tania's website, linked to above, all say determinate.

As I said above, I'd even settle for semi-det if pushed.

It's very rare to have a variety change plant habit although it did so with Green Grape b'c the original was definitiely indet and kind of morphed into det, as Tom Wagner, the breeder, knows all too well.

So it can happen if there's a spontaneous mutation in the genes that determine plant habit.

I don't know what's right and what's wrong as to the plant habit of MD, I just know that the majority of folks who have grown it have said det, and that Andrey got his seeds directly from Moravoseed, the breeders of this variety.

Ind or det, it's a winderfully early variety that I really like, especially the taste since most early varieties that I've grown, at least, don't have anywhere's near the excellent taste that Moravsky Div has.