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Old November 21, 2013   #31
carolyn137
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I remembered a thread here at Tville, and found it, which discusses the possible differences between Moravsky Div and the various Stupikes, and the parents of the Stupikes is given and so much more.

For those interested in Stupike (s) I think it's a must read. Vladimir, you posted as did Tania, and there was much information about Stupikes posted by a person with the user name of Digging Dog that I thought was both new and great.

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...ravsky+history

Carolyn
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Old November 21, 2013   #32
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Carolyn and Tanja, I answer today or tomorow. I resolve to add copies of documents now.
I write in English very slowly. One day I mediate how it write in English. Than I write english about three hours my report (# 28). In Czech language I should write that for ten minutes and more comprehensible.
Vladimír

PS.: I don´t know, if you can to open that file?
Attached Files
File Type: pdf SKMBT_C22013111909470.pdf (2.11 MB, 31 views)

Last edited by MrBig46; November 21, 2013 at 01:06 PM. Reason: I forgot to write:in Czech language
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Old November 22, 2013   #33
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Carolyn,
Milan Sodomka don´t write, that he post four Stupice, but only four Czech tomatoes
Andrey write:
There are 4 Czech varieties with Stupicke as a core name (first 2 for outside and last 2 for inside glasshouse):
Stupicke rane (can be translated as Stupicke Early)
Stupicke rane polni (Stupicke Early - sorry, can't translate "polni")
Stupicke rane sklenikove (Stupicke Early for glasshouse)
Stupicke sklenikove (Stupicke for glasshouse)

All four are only specimens in Czech genebank. Only two are varieties, which were proliferated and shopped:
Stupické rané polní- is the variety registrated 5.5.1955 new registration 6.3.2007.
Stupické rané - is only a specimen banked in Genebank Department at Olomouc today. This variety (likely cultivated by V.Šmerda) wasn´t given on ÚKZÚZ, because it is very conformable from Stupické rané polní.
Stupické skleníkové is the variety registrated 5.5.1954 new registration 6.3.2007. The Botanical garden Bucuresti posted this specimen to Research and Plant Breeding Inst. Of Vegetables at Olomouc in about 1976 year. Resarch and Plant Breeding Inst. was liquidated after 1989 y. and its collection was converted to Genebank.
Stupické rané skleníkové- analogical as Stupické rané.
Stupické rané skleníkové and Stupické rané aren´t varieties but only subspecies.
Vladimír

Last edited by MrBig46; November 22, 2013 at 09:28 AM.
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Old November 22, 2013   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tania View Post
Vladimir,

Thank you so much for the research! I would love to see the documents, but if they are in Czech, I am afraid I will not be able to read it...

Thank you so much for sending me Stupické Sklenikové and Stupické Polní Rané - now I have a unique opportunity to grow them side-by-side with Stupice, and see how close they are. Judging by the fruit size, Stupické polní rané should be closer to Stupice than Stupické skleníkové.

I also have Slava Poryni that I received from a customer in Poland. I understand that it is one of the parents of the original cross from which both Stupické originated.

I am also wondering where the name 'Stupice' came from... There is no mention of the names in the letter that Milan Sodomka sent to Forest Shomer of Abundant Life Seed Foundation in 1976 (http://www.seattlepi.com/lifestyle/h...he-1187046.php)

Do you know what 'fy Selecta' means? Is it a person's name or a name of a farm (or other organization)?

I understand that 'homologation' means 'approved for use', but please correct me if I am wrong.

Tatiana

1.Each on this web knows Tom Wagner, Fred Hempel, ... They of course excuse me , when I write that Jaroslav Homola was Czech Tom Wagner or Fred Hempel, …..
2.In 1921 year was founded the Station Stupice by Selecta (The firm for the cultivation plants and the propagation seed for sowing). This firm was nationialized sometime after 1948 year (as all firms in Czechoslovakia). From 1950 y. to 1989 y. commonwealth Czechoslovakia kept all perquisite to all Czech tomatoes. In 1989 were state firms privatized and the perquisites to tomatoes Stupice acquired three firms- Seva Seed, Moravoseed and Sempra. Sempra resigned on this perquisites. Moravoseed and Seva Seed proliferate seeds now.
3.Tanja, can you open that „pdf „ file.
4.I shall be plant Stupice, Stupické skleníkové and Stupické polní rané in 2014 too. „Moravský div“ appertains to them too.
5. Yes, ,homologation' means 'approved for use'
Vladimír

Last edited by MrBig46; November 22, 2013 at 09:59 AM.
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Old November 22, 2013   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBig46 View Post
Carolyn,
Milan Sodomka don´t write, that he post four Stupice, but only four Czech tomatoes
Andrey write:
There are 4 Czech varieties with Stupicke as a core name (first 2 for outside and last 2 for inside glasshouse):
Stupicke rane (can be translated as Stupicke Early)
Stupicke rane polni (Stupicke Early - sorry, can't translate "polni")
Stupicke rane sklenikove (Stupicke Early for glasshouse)
Stupicke sklenikove (Stupicke for glasshouse)

All four are only specimens in Czech genebank. Only two are varieties, which were proliferated and shopped:
Stupické rané polní- is the variety registrated 5.5.1955 new registration 6.3.2007.
Stupické rané - is only a specimen banked in Genebank Department at Olomouc today. This variety (likely cultivated by V.Šmerda) wasn´t given on ÚKZÚZ, because it is very conformable from Stupické rané polní.
Stupické skleníkové is the variety registrated 5.5.1954 new registration 6.3.2007. The Botanical garden Bucuresti posted this specimen to Research and Plant Breeding Inst. Of Vegetables at Olomouc in about 1976 year. Resarch and Plant Breeding Inst. was liquidated after 1989 y. and its collection was converted to Genebank.
Stupické rané skleníkové- analogical as Stupické rané.
Stupické rané skleníkové and Stupické rané aren´t varieties but only subspecies.
Vladimír
As I've been saying from the beginning there were two Stupikes for field growing and two for glasshouse growing as you just confirmed.

Abundant life listed the one variety just as Stupice, so Sodomka must have told them at some time it was Stupice and the name was "anglicized", as in writing it in English, if you will.

I also said that I received a pack of seeds from Europe, I don't remember who sent them to me, but it was Stupike rani ( not rane, as translated for me) and I couldn't tell the difference between the Stupice I had and the rani one.

You wrote:

Stupické rané skleníkové- analogical as Stupické rané.
Stupické rané skleníkové and Stupické rané aren´t varieties but only subspecies.

I think it might better to say stable selections, not subspecies for the following reason.

The genus for tomatoes is now back to Solanum.

The species is known either as lycopesicon ( cum) in Europe. or esculentum.

So we have Solanum lycopersicon. And sometimes as with Matt's Wild Cherry one sees S.lycopersocon var cerasiforme. Cerasiforme indicates that the stigma is below the pollen bearing anthers, not exerted as it is with about 50% of the currant tomatoes which are S. pimpinelifolium.

Individual known varieties of tomatoes are not known by genus and species.

They probably made the selections for glasshouse growing from selections that were less tolerant to outside growing where exposure to weather and diseases was a problem.

Carolyn
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Old November 27, 2013   #36
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Stupicke polni rane vs. Stupicke sklenikove
Stupicke polni rane -plant sick; high 70-90 cm; leafs- Mikado; harvest -very early; inflorescence type- generally multiparous; flower to 25 mm; fruit weight- generally 40-60 g; first fruit sometime angular; sometime 2-3 fruits connate; number locules 3-5
Stupicke sklenikove - plant strong; high 110-130 cm; leafs Mikado; harvest- early; inflorescence type- generally uniparous; flover -larger than 25 mm; fruit weight- generally 60-80 g; tomato for short day in Czech; number locules- generally 2


Vladimír

Last edited by MrBig46; November 27, 2013 at 04:39 AM.
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Old November 27, 2013   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBig46 View Post
Stupicke polni rane vs. Stupicke sklenikove
Stupicke polni rane -plant sick; high 70-90 cm; leafs- Mikado; harvest -very early; inflorescence type- generally multiparous; flower to 25 mm; fruit weight- generally 40-60 g; first fruit sometime angular; sometime 2-3 fruits connate; number locules 3-5
Stupicke sklenikove - plant strong; high 110-130 cm; leafs Mikado; harvest- early; inflorescence type- generally uniparous; flover -larger than 25 mm; fruit weight- generally 60-80 g; tomato for short day in Czech; number locules- generally 2


Vladimír
I find it interesting that they use the variety Mikado to indicate Potato Leaf foliage. Craig L and I got it out of the USDA when that was possible, but the seeds were very crossed. And yes, as the link indicates Mikado was felt to be Brandywine by some, but there were several other claims to Brandywine as well.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Mikado

from the traits that you posted it's clear, at least to me, that those were two selections that they made which I've posted about before..

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Old November 27, 2013   #38
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Vladimir,

Thank you so much for the wealth of information and for your research!

Yes, I can open the PDF document, but I cannot read Czech, so thank you for translations and explanations! The documents mention 'Stupice' as a place of production, so I am assuming this is probably why the name 'Stupicke' was changed to 'Stupice'...
I understand that 'Původni šlechtitel' means 'original breeder'. So Stupicke was bred by Jaroslav Homola, who worked at 'Selecta', correct?

I could not find a mention of the original name in the PDF document, maybe I missed it.

I find it fascinating that Stupice was bred from Mikado. So Mikado must have been available in Czech seed banks? I wish I could get my hands on this historical variety!

So I understand that Stupické rané skleníkové and Stupické rané may be further selections from the original varieties, Stupicke sklenikove and Stupicke polni rane.

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Old November 27, 2013   #39
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Vladimir,

We are so lucky to have you here, with all your knowledge and research!

Tatiana
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Old November 27, 2013   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBig46 View Post
Carolyn,
Milan Sodomka don´t write, that he post four Stupice, but only four Czech tomatoes
Andrey write:
There are 4 Czech varieties with Stupicke as a core name (first 2 for outside and last 2 for inside glasshouse):
Stupicke rane (can be translated as Stupicke Early)
Stupicke rane polni (Stupicke Early - sorry, can't translate "polni")
Stupicke rane sklenikove (Stupicke Early for glasshouse)
Stupicke sklenikove (Stupicke for glasshouse)

All four are only specimens in Czech genebank. Only two are varieties, which were proliferated and shopped:
Stupické rané polní- is the variety registrated 5.5.1955 new registration 6.3.2007.
Stupické rané - is only a specimen banked in Genebank Department at Olomouc today. This variety (likely cultivated by V.Šmerda) wasn´t given on ÚKZÚZ, because it is very conformable from Stupické rané polní.
Stupické skleníkové is the variety registrated 5.5.1954 new registration 6.3.2007. The Botanical garden Bucuresti posted this specimen to Research and Plant Breeding Inst. Of Vegetables at Olomouc in about 1976 year. Resarch and Plant Breeding Inst. was liquidated after 1989 y. and its collection was converted to Genebank.
Stupické rané skleníkové- analogical as Stupické rané.
Stupické rané skleníkové and Stupické rané aren´t varieties but only subspecies.
Vladimír
Vladimir,

I think Stupické polní rané means 'Early field Stupice' (probably 'bred for open field' - as opposed to 'skleníkové' which means 'greenhouse')
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Old November 27, 2013   #41
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Vladimir, one more question -

In the PDF document (page 1) I see mention of 'Mikado x Porýnske x Solanum racemigerum'

Is Porýnske the same as Sláva Porýni?
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Old November 27, 2013   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tania View Post
Vladimir,

Thank you so much for the wealth of information and for your research!

Yes, I can open the PDF document, but I cannot read Czech, so thank you for translations and explanations! The documents mention 'Stupice' as a place of production, so I am assuming this is probably why the name 'Stupicke' was changed to 'Stupice'...
I understand that 'Původni šlechtitel' means 'original breeder'. So Stupicke was bred by Jaroslav Homola, who worked at 'Selecta', correct?

I could not find a mention of the original name in the PDF document, maybe I missed it.

I find it fascinating that Stupice was bred from Mikado. So Mikado must have been available in Czech seed banks? I wish I could get my hands on this historical variety!

So I understand that Stupické rané skleníkové and Stupické rané may be further selections from the original varieties, Stupicke sklenikove and Stupicke polni rane.

Tatiana
Tania, look again and you'll see it said
leaf-type Mikado, so that Mikado comment was referring to PL foliage,which it is, as are all four Stupikes/

Did I miss where it was said that Mikado was one of the parents in breeding the initial Stupike, from which selections were made for all four?

It would make sense as a source of PL foliage, but Mikado being pink the other parent must have been red since all four Stupikes are red fruited.

Carolyn, and thanks again toVladimir who has done all the groundwork here. Justanother question for Vladimir. From those threads at GW long ago that can no longer be researched, I was pretty sure that the breeding station for the Stupikes was not one of the names you mentioned. It was a European GW member who spoke Czech who made the initial phone call, that I remember as well.
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Old November 27, 2013   #43
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Carolyn,

I found it in the PDF document - it says it came from 'Mikado x Porýnske x Solanum racemigerum' cross.
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Old November 27, 2013   #44
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Lost my whole answer to you Tania when I went to Google Czech breeding stations.

But I'll redo it when I remember all that I'd posted.

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Old November 28, 2013   #45
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Carolyn,
Tatianastomatobase is for me kind of a tomato bible. I don´t want to do some revolution in names tomatoes in USA. But I think that in this database it could be also assigned primary Czech name for example Stupice- Stupicke polni rane (also with regard to J.Homola). Only for this I shall be plant all Czech tomatoes, which are accessible ( I planted commonalty afore) and conseguently this thread. I know, that Moravský div will be shoped even if Czech name is other.
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