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Old August 3, 2015   #16
ginger2778
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Thanks, and I agree, and hope too. Last year I started August 14 I think, and promised myself that I'd do July 6 this year all things considered, but I was delayed by the flu and heat stroke. For me the decision was hard because I remember last year Sept was solid rain, and October was miraculous for being perfect and dry. The idea was to harden the plants before a possible repeat rain this year, but July 13 is going to be too late starting for that probably, which is what I meant by too late...fingers crossed it's not. We have to time it perfectly to get a good run. Because growing transplants in this heat isn't doing any favors for earliness with these big guys. You have the right idea, but we had such an early bad heat wave that I'm unsatisfied/frustrated with the spring crop performance and like a glutton for punishment here goes with the mid seasons and even some lates. Mine are indoors though, but I don't have A/C for my starts, so temp is a problem. if they get out of control it will be my pleasure to harden as soon as possible but @ 4 weeks is as soon as it will get looking at them. fingers crossed with you on the first freeze
Cheers
FLRedHeart- I had a tough time with that horrible every day September deluge last year, my seedlings were already transplanted to the 4" pots, and were outdoors, no where else to put the 800 of them. My garden club had a sale of them every year at a plant show, I generally sold about 450 so grew 500 to be sure. The rest were for me, and my annual plant swap.( different varieties)
Because of the rain, they got Septoria, but I found that it got managed really really well. I use the Southern Ag brand of liquid copper spray, at 1/2 Tablespoon per gallon, after it was mixed, I put in 1 teaspoon per gallon of BT, and a small squirt of organic dish soap as a spreader., then mixed those 2 additions into my already mixed copper solution, and sprayed the upper and undersides of every leaf, and the stem down to the soil line of the pot. This was done after every rain as much as I could, and my seedlings went to market with some lower leafs that had arrested Septoria, and very healthy upper leaves. It is very easy to spray a small 4-6 week old seedling.
Very important to mix the copper to it's dilution before adding the BT, then add at the end and spray, because copper is bactericidal, and BT is bacteria as you know. It will stay alive long enough to do the job this way.
Those same seedlings were my own transplants, and I had the strongest plants I have ever had. Prevention of fungus and caterpillars is key, and this used organic methods.
I mean this to be helpful.
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Old August 3, 2015   #17
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FLRedHeart- I had a tough time with that horrible every day September deluge last year, my seedlings were already transplanted to the 4" pots, and were outdoors, no where else to put the 800 of them. My garden club had a sale of them every year at a plant show, I generally sold about 450 so grew 500 to be sure. The rest were for me, and my annual plant swap.( different varieties)
Because of the rain, they got Septoria, but I found that it got managed really really well. I use the Southern Ag brand of liquid copper spray, at 1/2 Tablespoon per gallon, after it was mixed, I put in 1 teaspoon per gallon of BT, and a small squirt of organic dish soap as a spreader., then mixed those 2 additions into my already mixed copper solution, and sprayed the upper and undersides of every leaf, and the stem down to the soil line of the pot. This was done after every rain as much as I could, and my seedlings went to market with some lower leafs that had arrested Septoria, and very healthy upper leaves. It is very easy to spray a small 4-6 week old seedling.
Very important to mix the copper to it's dilution before adding the BT, then add at the end and spray, because copper is bactericidal, and BT is bacteria as you know. It will stay alive long enough to do the job this way.
Those same seedlings were my own transplants, and I had the strongest plants I have ever had. Prevention of fungus and caterpillars is key, and this used organic methods.
I mean this to be helpful.
Hi Marsha, thanks for describing your current method, it is very helpful to know especially considering how many OPs you start which sounds like it can only be love
I saw that Southern Ag copper product locally but something about it made me put it down. I think is might have been just that it was just a weak solution of copper sulfate with ammonia, both of which I have in excess at home sitting around. But as usual other things took priority and I forgot about it. Since I don't have as many starts, I'm fine with hand picking cats daily, so the Bt pesticide isn't a must if I'm attentive. Here in my part of the First Coast, leaf miners, gnat larvae in my case, are the bad boys. Rain seems to help their reproduction and Sept is their favorite temperature and wetness and tender transplants their delicacy. Bt is not effective on them, and the havoc they make invites infection on humid leaves. I squish them in their mines but really they work too fast, at least compared to cats. If I spray Malathion, which I despise far more than copper, it just kills all the predators and they slip in the leaf and party it up anyways, with more brazen vigor and number.

I might spray some Bordeaux solution on this time. It's pretty good in rain and I've used it before. Normally, I haven't treated the seedlings, but you are probably right and 5 weeks would also be right here, though I'd worry it might interfere with the hardening off, it sounds like that was not a problem for how yours worked, though tetraamine copper gets washed off more easily so it's not the best comparison if the copper persists longer. I personally believe its important to raise, not lower the pH of the leaf, and first impression is Bordeaux beats the bulk commodity copper complex S Ag product.

Bt probably isn't so sensitive as you would think. Most of it is the chemical toxin which is unaffected by how you mix it, and just some tough spores (long range backup mostly) which likely survive mixing fine and end up diluted anyway. But during the rainy season in practice I'd guess that the caterpillar kill rate is mostly from the initial crystals. I only mean this in the sense of understanding the pesticide, every little bit helps so you have good technique and that is important and I like it.
Cheers
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Old August 3, 2015   #18
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Hi Marsha, thanks for describing your current method, it is very helpful to know especially considering how many OPs you start which sounds like it can only be love
I saw that Southern Ag copper product locally but something about it made me put it down. I think is might have been just that it was just a weak solution of copper sulfate with ammonia, both of which I have in excess at home sitting around. But as usual other things took priority and I forgot about it. Since I don't have as many starts, I'm fine with hand picking cats daily, so the Bt pesticide isn't a must if I'm attentive. Here in my part of the First Coast, leaf miners, gnat larvae in my case, are the bad boys. Rain seems to help their reproduction and Sept is their favorite temperature and wetness and tender transplants their delicacy. Bt is not effective on them, and the havoc they make invites infection on humid leaves. I squish them in their mines but really they work too fast, at least compared to cats. If I spray Malathion, which I despise far more than copper, it just kills all the predators and they slip in the leaf and party it up anyways, with more brazen vigor and number.

I might spray some Bordeaux solution on this time. It's pretty good in rain and I've used it before. Normally, I haven't treated the seedlings, but you are probably right and 5 weeks would also be right here, though I'd worry it might interfere with the hardening off, it sounds like that was not a problem for how yours worked, though tetraamine copper gets washed off more easily so it's not the best comparison if the copper persists longer. I personally believe its important to raise, not lower the pH of the leaf, and first impression is Bordeaux beats the bulk commodity copper complex S Ag product.

Bt probably isn't so sensitive as you would think. Most of it is the chemical toxin which is unaffected by how you mix it, and just some tough spores (long range backup mostly) which likely survive mixing fine and end up diluted anyway. But during the rainy season in practice I'd guess that the caterpillar kill rate is mostly from the initial crystals. I only mean this in the sense of understanding the pesticide, every little bit helps so you have good technique and that is important and I like it.
Cheers
Here is a solution that is magical, with not one drop of spray. I used to have horrible problems with leaf miner flies and larvae, but not anymore. Basically fly paper, but they are called yellow sticky traps. You may be familiar with putting them out every 25 feet as a density monitoring device, but I put them out every 5 feet, and while I am not completely leaf miner free, I can say I am virtually leaf miner free. Each card lasts the entire 9-10 month season here, so yours should easily last your shorter season. I get them on Amazon, 15 for about $13. I order 2 packs to get the free shipping since I dont have Amazon Prime.
Barb says that lizards are trapped on hers, I haven't really seen that at all.
Most of the tiniest ones are whitefly corpses, and since using, also no TYLCV. I'll never be without them again.
Surprised you think the Southern Ag is a weak solution, since it is so much more concentrated than the other liquid brands I have seen on the HD shelf. Is yours a powder? What do you have, where do you get it?
Good to know that the BT spores aren't affected by the copper spray,
I guess that makes sense really.

I forgot to mention, the cats make chew holes in those baby leaves, and they were less marketable plants, so I had to get to them before I saw frass or holes. Good stuff, thanks!
Cheers too!
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Old August 3, 2015   #19
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Hi everyone,

I just must have more lizards-there are tons around; they get stuck and it is horrific. Then I feel really bad (and DH only makes it worse) that I start picking through my worm inn to find earwigs which is a lizard delicacy. I think this fall, I will go back to tulle.

Good News - I went back to the surgeon today, a new x-ray everything is fine, just need it to get strong (like I can't lean on it) but I am off the split and have a wrist wrap instead. Need to go back in 6 weeks but he said at that time if everything feels good, just cancel. Yeah!!!!

I guess I have no excuse NOT to get the rest of the mix solarized now.

Seedlings - I ended up starting a few; only those that I have lots of seeds. Saving those with just a few seeds for the ultimate starting date which is my dilemma.

Here is my temp stats: mainly looking at nighttime lows - as you can see 73 is avg low in August, but toms don't fruit even the so called "HEAT" varieties - so I'm going with <72. September 22 is the start of consistent 72 lows and starting October 2 has consistent 71 degrees.

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/ind...014&view=table

That would be approx. 60 days.... 8.5 weeks. How long do you think is optimal for having the plant size/flowering?

Plug in your zipcode, month, and see what you come up with in your area to compare.
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Old August 3, 2015   #20
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Originally Posted by Barb_FL View Post
Hi everyone,

I just must have more lizards-there are tons around; they get stuck and it is horrific. Then I feel really bad (and DH only makes it worse) that I start picking through my worm inn to find earwigs which is a lizard delicacy. I think this fall, I will go back to tulle.

Good News - I went back to the surgeon today, a new x-ray everything is fine, just need it to get strong (like I can't lean on it) but I am off the split and have a wrist wrap instead. Need to go back in 6 weeks but he said at that time if everything feels good, just cancel. Yeah!!!!

I guess I have no excuse NOT to get the rest of the mix solarized now.

Seedlings - I ended up starting a few; only those that I have lots of seeds. Saving those with just a few seeds for the ultimate starting date which is my dilemma.

Here is my temp stats: mainly looking at nighttime lows - as you can see 73 is avg low in August, but toms don't fruit even the so called "HEAT" varieties - so I'm going with <72. September 22 is the start of consistent 72 lows and starting October 2 has consistent 71 degrees.

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/ind...014&view=table

That would be approx. 60 days.... 8.5 weeks. How long do you think is optimal for having the plant size/flowering?

Plug in your zipcode, month, and see what you come up with in your area to compare.
Barb- delighted to hear that your arm is doing so well, truly! I went to your weather link, looks as though our overnight temps below 72 wont happen till about October 15. That's usual.
I read that with the glacial ice melting so much faster than they previously thought, and the sea level rising so much faster, the Biscayne Acquifer, our single fresh water source here in S.Fl. Is getting salt water inclusion already, so its going to get bad for us in just a few years. Long before the peninsular part of the state is covered in water. If they find a way to keep the salt water out, it is going to be very expensive. Scary! And depressing.
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Old August 3, 2015   #21
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Hi Barb and thanks for popping by at this point. I was just not far from you a week ago watching a rocket blast off from south of N. Smyrna Beach, I really like that part of FL.

Right now my keyboard is messed up and the new one won't arrive till later in the week if I'm lucky. So forgive if I'm brief because I wasn't expecting a fun conversation when I dropped in. Typing is with the mouse, also on the fritz, on this little thing called on-screen keyboard, and it's like a 1990s cellphone clicking text away here. It keeps crashing the pc too, so I'll be better in a few days and I refuse to type in text-talk, not into butchering English...

Marsha! Thanks for the sticky card tip :-) I've been through war with the leaf miners, so that has been one of my weapons too. I don't buy them, I make my own and they look the same size. I don't buy any consumables that are RTU, not even fertilizers. I strongly doubt the home made cards are the reason (unless yours have biochemical attractant), but they aren't the solution here for some reason I now need to figure out now that you were so optimistic and that wasn't my experience. I have an idea but need to go over it since it is related to something else I need to improve. If that pic is yours which I think it is, I can't tell the difference between the whiteflies and leaf miners. Mine catch a higher proportion of long legged flies unfortunately and I use six in total, six-feet separations, so very similar to you. Mine are mid plant level hanging on clips, and I just make them sticky on one side.

About the lizards, my experience is in between, and yes my home made traps will really be cruel to an Anolis, especially our native green ones, if you are compassionate you'd cry. The Anolises are an integral part of the IPM team here and my only vertebrate helpers. If I carelessly leave a card laying around the Anolis easily gets trapped, and in its struggles just plasters itself worse and the worse again. Removing them if you see it in time is really painful I'm sure, the way everything including tiny lizard toes stick. Then letting go the exhausted and emaciated friend, and you know he still has gunk on him, but you tenderly put rainwater in his mouth and put him on his way as he barely manages some feeble steps and you leave wondering if a bird gets him wouldn't it be better? I've never had a lizard get caught on a properly hung card which dangles in mid air on a string my way of mounting. Put it on a wall or horizontal even as temporary placement during chores, and don't be surprised to find this. So here, how the card is mounted is what's to watch.

For copper I have copper sulfate. It is a hydrated crystal and available anywhere chemicals are sold. I've had mine so long it is probably 20 years old and I don't recall where I got it or even what country I was living in when I did. But it is so common. Your best bet is to call a nursery especially dealing in commercial Citrus locally if others don't have any, where it is very economical and used for citrus canker. Otherwise buy it from someone cheap on the internet or eBay etc. Pentahydrate. I am not impressed with the staff or products from Southern Ag, one I called and tried to get some basic answers and I had to pull teeth and got nowhere. They are all commodities. The guy who founded that place must no longer be with them. I make everything I use, so l'm biased.

About the Bt mixing, I wrote my impression, but didn't mean it as fact. I'm comfortable with it, but prefer being fact supported, so to be 100% sure we could check the specific product composition with someone in the TS dept if it ever were important and bounce it off them for added insurance.

I just about have hit beyond the pain point on my mouse-board index finger but wanted to say I have no problem with low nighttime setting till 75 F, regardless of what the recommendations are.

It's beyond that where there is a severe blossom drop. By 79-80F I lose all but small toms. If I have plants in Sept they all set. 73-74F lows...big difference it wouldn't be feasible to wait for 71-72F. But we have to deal with multiple freezes here which box our season in.

Cheers
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Old August 3, 2015   #22
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Why sticky on only one side? Mine get that quantity of bugs on both sides, and we have tons of em here, because there really isn't any winter. What yellow cardboard do you use? Do you use Tanglefoot, or a different sticky? Some spray paint Solo cups, then spread them with vaseline, and use a pushpin through the bottom to fasten them to a small wooden stake. I tried that method,it works well, I think it would be more lizard friendly, but now I am lazy and just buy them.
Yes that is a photo of my actual trap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLRedHeart View Post
Hi Barb and thanks for popping by at this point. I was just not far from you a week ago watching a rocket blast off from south of N. Smyrna Beach, I really like that part of FL.

Right now my keyboard is messed up and the new one won't arrive till later in the week if I'm lucky. So forgive if I'm brief because I wasn't expecting a fun conversation when I dropped in. Typing is with the mouse, also on the fritz, on this little thing called on-screen keyboard, and it's like a 1990s cellphone clicking text away here. It keeps crashing the pc too, so I'll be better in a few days and I refuse to type in text-talk, not into butchering English...

Marsha! Thanks for the sticky card tip :-) I've been through war with the leaf miners, so that has been one of my weapons too. I don't buy them, I make my own and they look the same size. I don't buy any consumables that are RTU, not even fertilizers. I strongly doubt the home made cards are the reason (unless yours have biochemical attractant), but they aren't the solution here for some reason I now need to figure out now that you were so optimistic and that wasn't my experience. I have an idea but need to go over it since it is related to something else I need to improve. If that pic is yours which I think it is, I can't tell the difference between the whiteflies and leaf miners. Mine catch a higher proportion of long legged flies unfortunately and I use six in total, six-feet separations, so very similar to you. Mine are mid plant level hanging on clips, and I just make them sticky on one side.

About the lizards, my experience is in between, and yes my home made traps will really be cruel to an Anolis, especially our native green ones, if you are compassionate you'd cry. The Anolises are an integral part of the IPM team here and my only vertebrate helpers. If I carelessly leave a card laying around the Anolis easily gets trapped, and in its struggles just plasters itself worse and the worse again. Removing them if you see it in time is really painful I'm sure, the way everything including tiny lizard toes stick. Then letting go the exhausted and emaciated friend, and you know he still has gunk on him, but you tenderly put rainwater in his mouth and put him on his way as he barely manages some feeble steps and you leave wondering if a bird gets him wouldn't it be better? I've never had a lizard get caught on a properly hung card which dangles in mid air on a string my way of mounting. Put it on a wall or horizontal even as temporary placement during chores, and don't be surprised to find this. So here, how the card is mounted is what's to watch.

For copper I have copper sulfate. It is a hydrated crystal and available anywhere chemicals are sold. I've had mine so long it is probably 20 years old and I don't recall where I got it or even what country I was living in when I did. But it is so common. Your best bet is to call a nursery especially dealing in commercial Citrus locally if others don't have any, where it is very economical and used for citrus canker. Otherwise buy it from someone cheap on the internet or eBay etc. Pentahydrate. I am not impressed with the staff or products from Southern Ag, one I called and tried to get some basic answers and I had to pull teeth and got nowhere. They are all commodities. The guy who founded that place must no longer be with them. I make everything I use, so l'm biased.

About the Bt mixing, I wrote my impression, but didn't mean it as fact. I'm comfortable with it, but prefer being fact supported, so to be 100% sure we could check the specific product composition with someone in the TS dept if it ever were important and bounce it off them for added insurance.

I just about have hit beyond the pain point on my mouse-board index finger but wanted to say I have no problem with low nighttime setting till 75 F, regardless of what the recommendations are.

It's beyond that where there is a severe blossom drop. By 79-80F I lose all but small toms. If I have plants in Sept they all set. 73-74F lows...big difference it wouldn't be feasible to wait for 71-72F. But we have to deal with multiple freezes here which box our season in.

Cheers
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Old August 4, 2015   #23
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Why sticky on only one side? Mine get that quantity of bugs on both sides, and we have tons of em here, because there really isn't any winter. What yellow cardboard do you use? Do you use Tanglefoot, or a different sticky? Some spray paint Solo cups, then spread them with vaseline, and use a pushpin through the bottom to fasten them to a small wooden stake. I tried that method,it works well, I think it would be more lizard friendly, but now I am lazy and just buy them.
Yes that is a photo of my actual trap.
I thought it was yours, but in case it was a pic 'from the Internet' like so many post from manufacturers just to see, and yours looks so good, and because I couldn't distinguish whiteflies, I just was double checking. The tomato leaves should have given it away :-)

Yes, you're correct. I use Tree Tanglefoot, not sure if there is another. It was under $10 from Wallys. I will never run out. The cards are a poly neon yellow duo-tang folder cut up. Forever recyclable, but cutting a new duo-tang is easier LOL. (duo-tang sounds right for duble sided Tanglefoot cards, don't you think!)

I do need to clean the used ones and see if they've turned into flies in amber yet or what fungus has been cultured in that box...

Just one side.... because if you try it yourself you'll see! I'm quick about it, there's likely a better way to spread it, but it is super duper annoying to get on your fingers. Maybe I'll do double this time for better coverage. But that will be clipping two cards back to back.

Sounds like a decent use for vaseline, but I don't imagine it will last the whole season like TT. Since I've never done that, I'd be interested to know what others experience is with that
Cheers
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Old August 4, 2015   #24
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"Hi Barb and thanks for popping by at this point. I was just not far from you a week ago watching a rocket blast off from south of N. Smyrna Beach, I really like that part of FL."

Me too.
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Old August 4, 2015   #25
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Hi Everyone,

Barb thanks for starting this thread! Looking forward to seeing the fall crops and learning lots of new things

Ginny
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Old August 4, 2015   #26
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Ginny,
A while back you asked if anyone had any tomatoes setting fruit. I have 4 Bush Early Girl plants left over from the spring. 3 of them appear in fair shape. All have lots of blossoms and now all four are setting some fruit and the little toms are growing. Amazing little plant.
Larry
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Old August 9, 2015   #27
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That's great Larry - getting fruit set now.

Are you all getting bombarded with rain in the late afternoons?

----
A couple of things - for all of you using EB or SWC, do you use Pro-Mix? This thread http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=38004

User schill93 is debating buying pro-mix HP, BX, or making his own mix. He has no local source for Pro-mix and shipping / Amazon is really costly. I mentioned Marsha and Ginny being so successful and didn't think either of you used Pro-Mix. Feel free to comment on that thread and correct me if I am wrong.

----
Ginny - how is your mom doing?

more for Ginny - Blueberry Update:
Ordered 7/17 and no email for shipment - so I went to Etsy and did the contact the seller and sure enough today I got a shipping notification. Will keep you posted on how they look when they arrive.

My cloning efforts don't look very promising - but I read it takes a long time (not like a tomato cutting).

After lots of research, the Sunshine Blues really are the best for us Floridians- sweet, abundant and the least # of chill hours (150).

http://www.fallcreeknursery.com/nurs...thern-highbush

-----
Masha , everyone but Kay - when are you starting your seeds?

Do you think it is 8 weeks from seed plant/germination to flowering - ability to set fruit if conditions (temperature) are right?
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Old August 9, 2015   #28
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Barb, Yes, some rain almost every day. On days it doesn't rain it is cloudy with temperatures lower than normal, for this time of year. Possibly daily high temperatures lower than normal may help explain tomatoes setting this time of year. From the 10 day forecast doesn't look like much change, rain forecast all but one day, next Tuesday. Maybe the sun will return in September, when hopefully I will be transplanting tomatoes to the garden. Larry
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Old August 9, 2015   #29
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Barb- funny you should ask when I am starting my seeds, I just dropped 24 varieties of peppers into the cells last night. The tomato seeds will be started August 29.
LET THE SEASON BEGIN!!!
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Old August 10, 2015   #30
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4 varieties ??? - how many plants of each? What do you do with all those peppers. I guess I should start a couple of Shi****o peppers. I'm all set with Marconis/Bell from testing Kay's method. All look great and Marconis already have fruit.

Thanks for the tomato seed info: I feel like I should start earlier than you and looking at that calendar justifies it (I already started some last week). We will be gone for a week and back on 8/25, so maybe I will start then. Otherwise, I could start right before we leave, and let them germinate while we are gone. Germination seems to take 4 days now.

----
Ginny - where are you?
I got the blueberry plants today: Here's a pic. They were packed in the long thin box barely wide enough to hold the plants and stacked. (like a box you would mail a poster or umbrella) Weird - I've never had any plant/bare roots shipped in a box like that. The containers were in plastic bags and the canes/plant was wrapped in newpaper. The media was drenched. I put on my porch and not watering. See if they will dry out.

But, they are definitely ALIVE.... and look healthy enough - ...just a little crushed. Perhaps the light yellow leaves are a sign of overwatering. The size is actually quite good especially the one.

Time will tell if they are truly Blueberry Sunshine....since the 2 reputable online vendors that I would try next do not have B.SunShine in stock.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with them.
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