Fasciated stemmed dwarf photo

[sjamesNorway]

Here's a photo of a fasciated dwarf at 6 weeks and 3 1/3 inches. I'm pretty sure the main stem is the variety I chose to sow: Dwarf Sweet Sue. The side stem is a lighter color. Both have rugose leaves.

Steve

[peebee]

I've had the same thing happen this year to a Captain Lucky seedling, it's when there is one main stem but at the bottom there is another smaller one that grows off that main shoot right? I have not planted it yet as it is growing so slowly and now I have no more room. Is there any difference between a fascinated one and a normal one, once grown?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by peebee

I've had the same thing happen this year to a Captain Lucky seedling, it's when there is one main stem but at the bottom there is another smaller one that grows off that main shoot right? I have not planted it yet as it is growing so slowly and now I have no more room. Is there any difference between a fascinated one and a normal one, once grown?

I don't see Steve's photo above as showing a fasciated stem since he shows that one stem has dark leaves and the other stem has light leaves, although both are rugose.

If they are indeed joined below what one cannot see in the picture, below the surface, I think it's more likely the result of a somatic mutation.

Most mutations occur in seed DNA while somatic mutations occur in the DNA of a plant cell and are permanent and heritable.

There are quite a few examples of somatic mutations known, even one here at Tville where the variety known as Casino Chips was a somatic mutation of the much larger variety Casino where one branch had cherry tomatoes.

The variety Riesentraube gave rise to Yellow Riesentraube when just ONE fruit on a plant of the normal red ones was yellow.

And I've seen a few of my own. One was Dix Doight de Naples where one branch had still red fruits but of an entirely different shape. Another was with the variety Green Gage where one branch had not the normal yellow fruits, but red fruits.

Steve, do you think you could somehow seperate them and see what the root systems are like and possibly grow them individually?

Carolyn

[Father'sDaughter]

I have an Antique Roman that appears to have two fused stems. Is this a fasciated stem or something else? The two stems go all the way down to where the roots begin and then divide up where the leaves begin.

[sjamesNorway]

Peebee, yes my plant is growing as you describe.

Carolyn, I'm attaching an earlier photo which shows the fasciation, if that's what it is. (?) I transplanted the seedling to a 4" pot up to the point of separation. It's true, both the main stem and its leaves are darker than the "side stem" and its leaves. Do you still think this may be a mutation?

[Salsacharley]

Here is an interesting plant that has a loop or knot in the stem. There are tiny leaves growing out of the knot while the rest of the leaves appear normal. There is one leaf growing out of the knot that is normal as well.

[Salsacharley]

Hopefully this is a clearer picture.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by sjamesNorway

Peebee, yes my plant is growing as you describe.

Carolyn, I'm attaching an earlier photo which shows the fasciation, if that's what it is. (?) I transplanted the seedling to a 4" pot up to the point of separation. It's true, both the main stem and its leaves are darker than the "side stem" and its leaves. Do you still think this may be a mutation?

Yes, I do think it's probably a somatic mutation. You would not get dark leaves on one side and lighter leaves on the other side if it weren't.

With most true Dwarf varieties the central stem is very sturdy and usually fasciated, going back to Tomato de Laye as described in several of the links in the following Google search;

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Tomato+de+Laye

I'm not betting house money on this but I do think a somatic mutation has a good chance of being right.

Carolyn, who also says every time I see Norway as part of your user name it brings back so many wonderful memories of visiting many places in Norway, as well as some folks, one relative actually, and also in Sweden where the Carlson side of my family came from. Ja?

[sjamesNorway]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Yes, I do think it's probably a somatic mutation. You would not get dark leaves on one side and lighter leaves on the other side if it weren't.

With most true Dwarf varieties the central stem is very sturdy and usually fasciated, going back to Tomato de Laye as described in several of the links in the following Google search;

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Tomato+de+Laye

I'm not betting house money on this but I do think a somatic mutation has a good chance of being right.

Carolyn, who also says every time I see Norway as part of your user name it brings back so many wonderful memories of visiting many places in Norway, as well as some folks, one relative actually, and also in Sweden where the Carlson side of my family came from. Ja?

Being back to the probability of a somatic mutation, we're also back to your question in post 3 here about trying to separate the parts and grow them individually. I've no experience with this type of experiment. I suppose I could transplant again up to the top sets of leaves. The two parts would presumably develop separate root systems from the point of separation up to the top of the soil level. I'm not sure how long it would take for this to be enough to sustain the smaller part. I wonder whether it might be better to let them grow together, and see what the fruits turn out to be? I could then save seeds, and plant the mutation on its own next year. I'd be grateful for your advice.

My connection to Norway began as stage manager on a Norwegian cruise ship, where I met my Norwegian wife who was ship's nurse. I was born and raised in New Hampshire, but I've now been in Norway for 37 years. I'm still enthralled by the country's natural beauty. Ja!

Steve

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by sjamesNorway

Being back to the probability of a somatic mutation, we're also back to your question in post 3 here about trying to separate the parts and grow them individually. I've no experience with this type of experiment. I suppose I could transplant again up to the top sets of leaves. The two parts would presumably develop separate root systems from the point of separation up to the top of the soil level. I'm not sure how long it would take for this to be enough to sustain the smaller part. I wonder whether it might be better to let them grow together, and see what the fruits turn out to be? I could then save seeds, and plant the mutation on its own next year. I'd be grateful for your advice.

My connection to Norway began as stage manager on a Norwegian cruise ship, where I met my Norwegian wife who was ship's nurse. I was born and raised in New Hampshire, but I've now been in Norway for 37 years. I'm still enthralled by the country's natural beauty. Ja!

Steve

Good question and now I'm confused.

I look at the picture in post 5 and see individual seedlings, some with light colored leaves, some with darker leaves and then I look at your original picture which shows just one plant with another stem coming out with different colored leaves.

Is it possible in that original picture that there were TWO seeds sown or stuck together, not just one, which would make my interpretation quite different.

If you haven't gone digging around in that one pot to see if there are one or two plants, then there's no way to know for sure.

What did you do with all of the individual plants you showed? Can you just pot up one or more of each leaf color and see what you get when set out in a permanent place? Seems to me better than letting the pot with now maybe two plants ripen up and saving seeds separately.

Amd I making sense here?

Carolyn, who notes that the Medical School in Oslo had an exchange program with the Med School in Rochester, NY where I was, not for an MD, but for a Ph.D. I got to know many Norwegian med students when I was there. The one I knew the best was Sverre Lie, he went on to become the head of the Rikshospitalet in Oslo. When i saw a picture of him with Queen Elizabeth I just burstout laughing b'c Sverre would send home to Norway to get bottles of essence of gin, vodka, etc, and dilute it with lab alcohol and was often seen going down corridors on his hands only. I visited him at his home in oslo and met his mother and his sister kari. and he took me to some famous restaurand that featured norwegian food, sheep something or other, etc. The relative I spoke of was Fru Gjestvang and she lived in a gorgeous home on the oslo fjord. She invited me to her home, but knew no English so Sverre went with me to translate. She had more Munch's in her home than the Munch Museum. She had married her Uncle who was one of the first to introduce cars to Norway and married him to keep the money in the family. And it was Sverre who also planned my trip in Norway. Train from oslo to Bergen and then a Norwegian ship that cruised along the coast, went down one of the larger fjords, pulled in to dock and I was the only one who left the ship. What a feeling. But they had assured me that soon a bus would come down the MT and pick me up, and it did. Can't remember where I went after that by bus, saw many stave churches and so much more, absolutely gorgeous country. Ok, I typed too much, but I told you it all brought back wonderful memories to me.

[sjamesNorway]

I hope I can clear up the confusion. The photo in post 5 is an early one from a seed flat showing 2 different varieties. The plant in the middle is the one in question. It clearly shows that there is one main stem with a lighter side stem growing out on the left, which I believe starts part way up the main stem. There is definitely only one plant. Is it possible this is a result of two seeds stuck together? The photo in post 1 is recent, taken after I "potted up deeply" to the point where the stems separate.

The most vigorous of the other individual plants in the post 5 photo have also been potted up.

You have quite a connection to Norway! I checked out Sverre Lie. He was chief of the pediatric clinic at the Rikshospital, became a Knight of the St Olav's Order, and was named by the Prime Minister as an UN adviser with the goal of reducing childhood mortality after his retirement. It sounds like you are related to the affluent Norwegian Gentry. The trip you took is similar to the classic one we've taken family on, and sent friends on, called "Norway in a Nutshell".

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by sjamesNorway

I hope I can clear up the confusion. The photo in post 5 is an early one from a seed flat showing 2 different varieties. The plant in the middle is the one in question. It clearly shows that there is one main stem with a lighter side stem growing out on the left, which I believe starts part way up the main stem. There is definitely only one plant. Is it possible this is a result of two seeds stuck together? The photo in post 1 is recent, taken after I "potted up deeply" to the point where the stems separate.

The most vigorous of the other individual plants in the post 5 photo have also been potted up.

You have quite a connection to Norway! I checked out Sverre Lie. He was chief of the pediatric clinic at the Rikshospital, became a Knight of the St Olav's Order, and was named by the Prime Minister as an UN adviser with the goal of reducing childhood mortality after his retirement. It sounds like you are related to the affluent Norwegian Gentry. The trip you took is similar to the classic one we've taken family on, and sent friends on, called "Norway in a Nutshell".

Thanks for the clarification and I think it's best, as you already mentioned, to hopefully see ripe fruits from the dark side, ahemm and the light side, and see what you get. It could well be a simple seed DNA mutation that changes just the leaf color, but I don't know that much about the genes that are involved in that.

Affluent Norwegian Gentry? I don't think Sverre ever became affluent but I really must contact the Rikshospitalet to see if they can contact him for me. Fru Gjestvang? Filthy rich. On the slope going down to the fjord were orchards of this and that, heated greenhouses, lots of gardeners as well. Her home was huge. As we sat at the table that night for dinner she was at one end of that long table and Sverre and I at the other end. There was a bell on the floor that she would use to call for the next course, I don't know how many cooks and maids she had. She did have a driver and at the time I was staying at the Salvation Army Hostel and I loved it when he would pick me up there in that huge black car and take me wherever she thought I should go and visit. I completely forgot to mention that Fru Gjestvangs sister, I think it was, who married Iver Carlson, a brother of my grandmother, her name was, to me, my great Aunt Netta. We trembled when she came to visist b'c she always wore white gloves and swiped them everwhere looking for dust. And I had been given Fru's contact info from Aunt Netta, or possibly by one of her children, Iver Carlson Jr.

Carolyn

[sjamesNorway]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Thanks for the clarification and I think it's best, as you already mentioned, to hopefully see ripe fruits from the dark side, ahemm and the light side, and see what you get. It could well be a simple seed DNA mutation that changes just the leaf color, but I don't know that much about the genes that are involved in that.

Affluent Norwegian Gentry? I don't think Sverre ever became affluent but I really must contact the Rikshospitalet to see if they can contact him for me. Fru Gjestvang? Filthy rich. On the slope going down to the fjord were orchards of this and that, heated greenhouses, lots of gardeners as well. Her home was huge. As we sat at the table that night for dinner she was at one end of that long table and Sverre and I at the other end. There was a bell on the floor that she would use to call for the next course, I don't know how many cooks and maids she had. She did have a driver and at the time I was staying at the Salvation Army Hostel and I loved it when he would pick me up there in that huge black car and take me wherever she thought I should go and visit. I completely forgot to mention that Fru Gjestvangs sister, I think it was, who married Iver Carlson, a brother of my grandmother, her name was, to me, my great Aunt Netta. We trembled when she came to visist b'c she always wore white gloves and swiped them everwhere looking for dust. And I had been given Fru's contact info from Aunt Netta, or possibly by one of her children, Iver Carlson Jr.

Carolyn

Thank you for your interest and advice.

Your experience with the Gjestvangs sounds like something from a TV miniseries. What classic comic situations with the filthy rich lady at the far end of the long table, the aunt with the white gloves, and the chauffeur-driven limousine collecting you at the Salvation Army Hostel!

Sverre Olaf Lie resides at Arne Garborg's Vei 24, 1395 Hvalstad. Telephone: 47 (land code) 66 78 43 41.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by sjamesNorway

Thank you for your interest and advice.

Your experience with the Gjestvangs sounds like something from a TV miniseries. What classic comic situations with the filthy rich lady at the far end of the long table, the aunt with the white gloves, and the chauffeur-driven limousine collecting you at the Salvation Army Hostel!

Sverre Olaf Lie resides at Arne Garborg's Vei 24, 1395 Hvalstad. Telephone: 47 (land code) 66 78 43 41.

Thanks so very much for that address,and I wouldn't call him b'c he would think it was a ghost from the past so I will write to him.

Does Vei mean apartment or street and would I address a letter to him as

Dr. Sverre Lie
Arne Garborg's Vei 24
1395 Hvalstad, Norway?

Now I have to Google where Hvalstad is.

Carolyn

[sjamesNorway]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Thanks so very much for that address,and I wouldn't call him b'c he would think it was a ghost from the past so I will write to him.

Does Vei mean apartment or street and would I address a letter to him as

Dr. Sverre Lie
Arne Garborg's Vei 24
1395 Hvalstad, Norway?

Now I have to Google where Hvalstad is.

Carolyn

The address as you've written it is correct. Vei is way or road. Hvalstad is not far from the Henie (as in Sonja) Onstad Art Centre where I worked for 30 years, and even closer to Skaugum where the Crown Prince and his family live.