Micro-tomato crosses

[maf]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

I looked back in my notes on that line and I saw the same thing. I cant explain why off the top of my head. The F3 was a really pretty small dwarf plant with bright orange cherry toms.

If large plants are coming from a small dwarf mother the only reasonable explanation I can see is cross pollination. In this scenario the small dwarf plants are the only ones that were self pollinated and the larger ones are a new cross. When the tomatoes are ripe the color may supply more clues as to what is going on here.

It happens.... just nature interfering with the best laid plans.

[ChrisK]

Agreed. That's the obvious explanation.

Originally Posted by maf

If large plants are coming from a small dwarf mother the only reasonable explanation I can see is cross pollination. In this scenario the small dwarf plants are the only ones that were self pollinated and the larger ones are a new cross. When the tomatoes are ripe the color may supply more clues as to what is going on here.

It happens.... just nature interfering with the best laid plans.

[Darren Abbey]

Originally Posted by maf

It happens.... just nature interfering with the best laid plans.

Just this process is how I got interested in breeding micro-tomatoes!

[dfollett]

I haven’t been able to put together fully coherent post today, so I’ll post miscellaneous observations:

They are ripening fast now, faster than we can eat them. From ten plants I’ve picked over 225 fruits between Saturday and Wednesday – and I’ll probably get than many more over the next week. Most of them are very tasty for tiny tomatoes – especially winter-indoor-grown under lights.

Some of the plants are struggling a little. Some are ripening (or at least turning red) a few fruits that apparently stopped growing at about the size of a large pea. I don’t know enough to say why, although it feels to me like I should have fed them more. In an earlier post I said it felt like they needed more fertilizer – I think I’m seeing the result of that. If anyone can give an explanation of what would cause fruit to not reach full-size, but still turn red, please chime in. So far, it is a relatively few fruits on two of the plants.

We (my wife and I) have twice lined up fruit from all ten and done a taste comparison. There is more difference in flavor than I had expected. Most were quite good and three stood out from the rest. We both rated one as clearly better than the others, and two others nearly as good. One was much worse than the rest – not quite a spitter, but quite sour and the others were OK. We didn’t formally rank them 1-10, but identified the single best and the other two that stood out and the worst.

While I was saving seed Wednesday, I used a refractometer to measure Brix levels for each one. Again, I was surprised by the range of readings. I have never closely watched Brix levels or correlated it to taste, nor do I understand it well. They ranged from 5.4 to 7.8. The levels were:

o 1 – 7.8
o 2 – 7.6
o 3 – 7.0
o 4 – 5.8
o 5 – 5.4
o 6 – 6.6
o 7 – 7.0
o 8 – 5.9
o 9 – 6.4
o 10 – 7.8

The one that we agreed was the best tasting was #2 and the other two that stood out were #1 & #10. Clearly, there is something to the Brix levels, but it doesn’t explain everything.

The worst tasting was #4 and we didn’t keep track of how the others ranked. Again, a fairly strong correlation with Brix level.

Plant #1 has the best growth habit – the most compact with the best production. Plant #2 was one of the taller ones, but also one of the heaviest producers. Plant #10 was also one of taller ones. It produced above average, but not as heavily as #2.

Some are still producing new blossoms and appear to be setting fruit, while others seem to have quit any new growth and are only ripening what has already set. I don’t know if that is indeterminate vs determinate or if it is more related to the overall health of the plants. I’m picking off and discarding quite a few leaves that show problems, but overall, they seem OK.

I remember reading something about being able to tell the difference between determinate, semi-determinate and indeterminate by the number of leaf stems between flower clusters or something like that. Would those rules-of-thumb hold for these micros? I have not examined these anywhere near closely enough to know, but could take a look if it is worth looking for and if I knew what I was looking for.

Anyway, they are still more than fun to watch and work with. It will be interesting to see how they do in the ground this summer.

[ChrisK]

Excellent report! I have copied it to my records. Is there any difference in fruit color between the lines?

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

Excellent report! I have copied it to my records. Is there any difference in fruit color between the lines?

There does not appear to be any significant difference in color at the fully ripe stage. The differences you see in the photo below can be attributed to differences in ripeness.

Today I picked another 193 that were either fully ripe or that I thought would be overripe by next Wednesday, when I get my next chance to do anything with them. The very tiny ones surprised me by having as much and as good flavor and the full-sized ones.

[crmauch]

Originally Posted by dfollett

The one that we agreed was the best tasting was #2 and the other two that stood out were #1 & #10. Clearly, there is something to the Brix levels, but it doesn’t explain everything.

Detectible sweetness is highly affected by acidity. Things with the same Brix but with one of lower acidity will taste sweeter (but if the acid drops too low the thing tasted will taste 'flat').

Used to make homemade wine (from grapes I grew). Being here on the east coast, and the French hybrid grapes I mostly grew, the acidity tended to run high. So we typically added 1 to 2% sugar to the wine. It didn't taste sweet then,but it cut the perceived acidity of the wine.

But sugar and acidity are far from the whole story when it comes to taste.

[KarenO]

hello Chris,
I Took the children out for a walk to the greenhouse for a couple of hours of real light today.
Very happy with these little plants and they have a lot of fruit set on them especially for plants grown inside imo.
Happy St. Paddy's day
Karen

[Tracydr]

You guys have me hooked,now! I'd love to help out. I can also use my small greenhouse next winter. Right now, I have a dock on the pond just begging for some of these little guys.

[ChrisK]

Always looking for more diligent volunteers! I'm loving the updates and posts from our micro-tomato project team! I have so many more crosses to grow and stabilize there will be no shortage of work.

Originally Posted by Tracydr

You guys have me hooked,now! I'd love to help out. I can also use my small greenhouse next winter. Right now, I have a dock on the pond just begging for some of these little guys.

[ChrisK]

Oooh ahhhh...any tasting yet?

Originally Posted by KarenO

hello Chris,
I Took the children out for a walk to the greenhouse for a couple of hours of real light today.
Very happy with these little plants and they have a lot of fruit set on them especially for plants grown inside imo.
Happy St. Paddy's day
Karen

[KarenO]

none ripe yet but I am hoping soon. I thought a little real sun in the greenhouse might inspire a ripe one looking forward to tasting! I have had a lot of fun with these Chris, thanks again for the seeds.
Karen

[dfollett]

They appear to all have the same skin color - true reds. No clear epidermis.

Tallest are 23-24" - half are in that range. The other five range from 13" to about 20". I'm sure I'm at the peak for production and it will diminish from here. Yesterday I picked 292 ripe fruit from the 10 plants. I weighed them separately from each plant. The average weight for all 292 fruit was 6.09 g. The average weight from each plant ranged from 5.23 g to 7.21 g. The fewest I picked from any plant was 22 and the most 43. That makes 710 ripe fruits from these 10 plants in 4 pickings 3/7, 3/11, 3/14 and 3/18. That is an average of 71 per plant over a two week period - and there are still lots remaining. But the numbers will decline. I did not keep a count of what I picked prior to 3/7.

I redid the brix test yesterday, this time using the largest fully ripe fruit from each plant - freshly picked. Last time, some may have been picked several days before the test. I don't know if tomatoes lose sugar content over time after being picked (I understand corn does). Plant #1 was highest at 7.9. Three others were above 7 (7.4-7.6) and only one was below 6 (5.6). Overall, the average brix reading was higher than the first test, so I'm going to assume that brix readings may decrease over time after picking. Someone who knows either correct me or confirm.

It is my intention to carry #1 forward - perhaps one or two others, but primarily #1. There is less difference in flavor now than two weeks ago. Certainly not enough difference in taste between #1 and #2 to prioritize #2. #1 is clearly the highest priority to advance.

They are either getting better tasting as they mature or I am developing a taste for them. I brought a cup with about 45 in it to work with me this morning and it is now empty - no spitters in the bunch.

[heirloomtomaguy]

These are the 2 out of 18 that are showing the micro dwarf traits. Cant wait to get fruit.

[ChrisK]

Anything new? We've had quite a growout of this line. Hope a few seeds are being saved for me!

Originally Posted by kayrobbins

Your project is getting lots of notice in Jacksonville. Since I have over 200 peppers and tomatoes under my lights I had to share some the plants with friends. They all talk about how cute they are and how happy it makes them to have the smell of a tomato plant in their house. Several of them have named them.

I gave one to a friend that owns an herb farm. She give a lot of talks to garden clubs and she took hers to a recent talk. Everyone wanted to know the name and where they could get one. She told them it was HMCC #23 and it did not have a name. When I shared the plant I gave them numbers so I could track how they did for others.