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Old May 1, 2016   #46
shule1
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@Travis

> Moreover, there is no such thing as a "stable F2" since all F2s are 50% homogenou and 50% heterogenous.

I think you're thinking of F1 hybrids. F2s+ are not predictable, otherwise they would be commonly sold by big businesses, too. A stable F2 is definitely possible, if unlikely. The percent that will be homozygous and the percent that will be heterozygous in an F1 hybrid depends on the variety, though. There's no definite 50/50 with any generation.

So, with stabilized varieties, all the traits are supposed to be homozygous. With F1s, all the dominant traits of both stabilized parents will be expressed, and recessive genes will only be expressed if both parents had the same recessive gene. All of those expressed recessive traits are already stable in the F1 generation, as are all the expressed dominant genes that were shared by both parents. However, the heterozygous genes are still of course unstabilized. In the F2 generation, both parental sides that were heterozygous in the F1 could turn out to be anything (recessive and homozygous, dominant and homozygous, or heterozygous again). If all the genes turn out to be homozygous, the variety is stabilized in the F2 generation. The odds of that happening aren't high, but it is possible. It's like rolling two sets of twelve dice into rows and hoping every die rolls the same as the one previously rolled next to it. Of course, miracles often happen, actually, but if you're just looking at the odds, that's similar to how it pans out. Of course, genetics can be more complicated than this. So, actual results may vary. So, in the F3 generation, every gene that was stabilized in the F2 is still stabilized, and you have a chance of having a chance number of extra homozygous traits. That continues until they're all homozygous, which could possibly never actually happen (but the odds are very extremely great that it will eventually happen in a future generation, provided it isn't crossed with something else).

Last edited by shule1; May 1, 2016 at 01:21 AM.
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Old May 1, 2016   #47
ilex
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My experience is with old OP varieties, many gotten from the original source. I'm used to see much more variability in those varieties than in these hybrids. Some are so diverse I call them landraces.

I understand they use very similar lines distinct by very few genes, mostly for disease tolerance. What I don't know is were to draw the line between an OP with some variability and a hybrid with virtually no diversity.
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Old May 1, 2016   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilex View Post
My experience is with old OP varieties, many gotten from the original source. I'm used to see much more variability in those varieties than in these hybrids. Some are so diverse I call them landraces.

I understand they use very similar lines distinct by very few genes, mostly for disease tolerance. What I don't know is were to draw the line between an OP with some variability and a hybrid with virtually no diversity.
Excellent response Ilex,just excellent.

And I'll let you know how Kumato's twin,Negro de Olmeda, performs for the person growing it out for seed production this summer.

Actually I'll try to let you know about the others as well, but not much feedback yet on germination, before even looking for performance of the plants themselves.

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Old June 30, 2018   #49
Greatgardens
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Default Kumato -- Disappointing in Dirt!

After having difficulty in getting my Kumato (OP) seeds to germinate, I ended up planting two. One is in soil and one is in an EarthBox. The one in dirt is particularly disappointing -- it seems to be a magnet for fungal diseases. There are two main issues: Septoria and something else that I can't really identify. The leaves just turn gray and "crispy" and die. I have sprayed with copper soap, but without much effect. The plant is tall and narrow and pretty much "open," so one would think it has really good air circulation. There are 4 small tomatoes on the plant. It will get pulled probably tonight.


The other plant in an EarthBox is doing much better. Very little disease and a few more tomatoes. (Even this one seems a very shy producer, but maybe that will improve.) It is also tall and open. We'll see how this one produces in determining if I will save seeds and plant it again. I'm not ready to totally give up. If I don't get good enough results to warrant saving seeds, I'll try next season with some seeds saved from the grocery.



-GG
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Old July 1, 2018   #50
frogsleap farm
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A hybrid breeding scheme in tomatoes can be a very effective method of stacking dominant traits, such as disease resistance alleles/markers, but as has been said earlier - these will segregate in the F2. Recessive alleles such as most traits associated with fruit color (other than red), and including many of the fruit traits that make Kumato distinct, need to be on both sides of the hybrid pedigree, and will breed true in the F2.

On the patent issue, in the U.S. it is possible to obtain a utility patent on hybrids and/or inbred parents developed through conventional breeding. The invention simply needs to be novel, non-obvious and useful. Such patents are now routine in maize and soybeans, and less common in tomatoes. There is standard language in such patents that specifically prohibit GE modification of the covered materials - that should not be confused with the patent covering a GE trait.

There have been many cases where GE techniques have been used in tomato research to help understand pathways, etc. The Klee Lab work at U of Florida on tomato flavor is a good example. These GE plants are subject to specific USDA/APHIS regulations to prevent gene escape - and with one exception do not appear to be targeted for a commercial product. The one exception is the anthocyanin tomato from John Innes Center in England. In this case my understanding is that it may be released in Canada for greenhouse only culture of tomatoes for value-added juice.
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Old July 21, 2018   #51
MrBig46
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This year I cultivate three Kumata plants from seeds selected from original fruits (in Australia). I also have one Mini Kumato. Even though they are not the fruits of the original Kumata, these tomatoes are most popular with us in the family.
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Old July 21, 2018   #52
NarnianGarden
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Lovely looking, Vladimir.
I grew a similar mini, dark supermarket tomato four years ago. The skin was really thick (to allow transport of course), so my Mom was not crazy about it. But the growing habit was lovely.
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Old July 21, 2018   #53
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Actually, I wanted to ask if anyone grow Negro de Olmeda which perhaps was the foundation breeding of Kumato.
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Old July 21, 2018   #54
Greatgardens
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Both look good!

My Kumato plants and fruit look different than your regular Kumato plant. Here is a pic of mine. And the fruit on mine are much larger than the store variety at 4.5-6 oz. I think this is a "storage tomato" type. They are hard as a rock and have been sitting on my counter for more than a week with no sign of softening. They have lost some of their greenish cast to a more reddish brown. Appears to be a thick skin (but I have not cut one, yet).

Disease is an issue with mine -- far more than any other variety I'm growing this year. And the productivity is pretty anemic -- not as yours appear to be. My seeds are from a line that has been grown for several years -- not an F2. I'll be interested to see how long these keep at room temperature, and of course, what they taste like.

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Last edited by Greatgardens; July 21, 2018 at 11:32 AM.
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Old July 21, 2018   #55
carolyn137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBig46 View Post
Actually, I wanted to ask if anyone grow Negro de Olmeda which perhaps was the foundation breeding of Kumato.
Vladimír
YES, I have

To my right is a pack of Negro de Olmeda seeds,one of those small ziplok ones that were sent to me by Ilex, aka Paco in Spain.

And in an e-mail somewhere Paco said that yes, it showed up in a farmer's field,or something like that.( see update below in Terry's link)

History of Kumato

https://www.google.com/search?q=Orig...&bih=815&dpr=1

Also seethe following and note who Damien Flores is

http://tomatoaddict.blogspot.com/200...sso-bruno.html

And there are lots of sources for so called black/brown cherry tomatoes as well.

https://www.google.com/search?q=blac...&bih=815&dpr=1

A favorite of mine is Cheronaya Lakoma, sent to me by Andrey in Belarus.

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Old July 21, 2018   #56
MrBig46
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Carolyn, I wanted to know if tomato is cultivating someone to give information.
Vladimír
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Old July 21, 2018   #57
carolyn137
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Quote:
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Carolyn, I wanted to know if tomato is cultivating someone to give information.
Vladimír
No, Vladimir,I have no idea if anyone is growing it this summer. I was supposed to be sending seeds to Kurt in FL, of the Negro de Olmeda seeds I have here, but that didn't happen.

There is a thread started last Fall and continuing into early Spring where folks posted what they plan to grow this summer,maybe you can find it to look and maybe when I have time I can also look.

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Old August 11, 2018   #58
MrBig46
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Some members of my family prefer the tomato of Kumato to all tomatoes. I occasionally grow Kumato or Mini Kumato from seeds selected from purchased fruits. Usually, the taste and shape of the tomato is indistinguishable from the original Kumato.
This year I have been growing Kumato and Mini Kumato from the fruit seeds purchased in Australia. Kumato is all right. Mini Kumato have an oval shape down the tip and their taste is not good. When I eat, I feel some bad taste there. Not taste me. I think purchased tomatoes were not the original Mini Kumato, and what I'm doing is a third generation of F3.
Vladimír
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File Type: jpg DSCN0200.jpg (303.1 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN0100MiniKumato.jpg (274.9 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN0281Mi Ku.jpg (351.8 KB, 37 views)

Last edited by MrBig46; August 11, 2018 at 03:49 AM.
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Old August 11, 2018   #59
Salsacharley
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Unfortunate that they don't taste good. They sure look good.
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Old August 11, 2018   #60
carolyn137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBig46 View Post
Some members of my family prefer the tomato of Kumato to all tomatoes. I occasionally grow Kumato or Mini Kumato from seeds selected from purchased fruits. Usually, the taste and shape of the tomato is indistinguishable from the original Kumato.
This year I have been growing Kumato and Mini Kumato from the fruit seeds purchased in Australia. Kumato is all right. Mini Kumato have an oval shape down the tip and their taste is not good. When I eat, I feel some bad taste there. Not taste me. I think purchased tomatoes were not the original Mini Kumato, and what I'm doing is a third generation of F3.
Vladimír
Please look at post #26 in this thread for some answers Vladimir.

And I did yet another search about Kumato and here's that link.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...ghlight=Olmeda


Hope the above helps,

Carolyn
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