Tomatoville® Gardening Forums


Notices

Member discussion regarding the methods, varieties and merits of growing tomatoes.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old October 13, 2017   #16
jtjmartin
Tomatovillian™
 
jtjmartin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Williamsburg VA Zone 7b
Posts: 1,110
Default

Scott:

Great article and thanks for all your work on this.
jtjmartin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13, 2017   #17
Redbaron
Tomatovillian™
 
Redbaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,488
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PureHarvest View Post
Anytime you wanna talk shop on the biz end, I'm all ears.
I sell tomatoes and peppers for 3 dollars a pound and cukes and summer squash at 1 dollar a pound and sweetcorn 6 for a dollar from right beside the house at a laughably small "redneck" looking stand. I could easily sell 10 times that amount without any advertising or even signs. The profit projection at small scale by hand to scale up would be 10,000 per acre based on 5 years at small scale. But of course out of that I need to buy and clear the land and buy the equipment. The no till planter is 7 thousand and the clearing of the land alone is 3 thousand for 10 acres.

However, given the gross income potential I should still break even or better first year out the gate if I watch expenses carefully. (and I do)

Guaranteed I do not even come close to saturating the market. I sell out daily and have nothing but frantic customers begging me to PLEASE call them before everyone else buys all the good tomatoes. Got customers bribing me by bringing back salsa Gazpacho soup, pickles etc etc etc....made from vegetables I sold them! I even almost had a food fight in front of the picnic table this year as two crazy women were fighting over the last couple big brandy boys. If I expand the problem I see it parking more than anything else. But it is a 1/10th acre. Just not enough to go around.

However, it is all projected and since my methods are still experimental, they are not GAP. That means no possible way to get even a USDA ag loan or crop insurance. (They require GAP to insure the crop and thus the loan) It's a catch 22. I need an angel first to do a proper documented proof of concept of the business plan. Then I can attract the capital for expanding it, by just running my demonstration farm. The local carbon project director already promised the position to me if I ever get it going.
Carbon Sequestration Certification Program
__________________
Scott

AKA The Redbaron

"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system."
Bill Mollison
co-founder of permaculture

Last edited by Redbaron; October 13, 2017 at 12:07 PM.
Redbaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13, 2017   #18
Sun City Linda
Tomatovillian™
 
Sun City Linda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: SoCal Inland
Posts: 2,705
Default

Love all the bribes!
Sun City Linda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 14, 2017   #19
JLJ_
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 759
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redbaron View Post
I know this is not much compared to the very many successful writers here at T-ville. But I have to start somewhere. Today I got published! woot woot.

Can We Reverse Global Warming?

. . .
I've tried several times and haven't been able to get it to load. Thought perhaps it was a video which would be too large to load over this slow connection, but saw several reference reading it . . . what kind of document is it? Any reason you know of it would be difficult to load with a system that dispatches a pack mule to pick up bits and bytes in its saddlebags and trudge back with them, then make another trip for the next sentence?
JLJ_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 14, 2017   #20
Worth1
Tomatovillian™
 
Worth1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Den of Drunken Fools
Posts: 38,539
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLJ_ View Post
I've tried several times and haven't been able to get it to load. Thought perhaps it was a video which would be too large to load over this slow connection, but saw several reference reading it . . . what kind of document is it? Any reason you know of it would be difficult to load with a system that dispatches a pack mule to pick up bits and bytes in its saddlebags and trudge back with them, then make another trip for the next sentence?
There are some links here I simply cannot look at and my old computer locks up.
They are so full of animated advertisements and side videos it cant handle it and I have high speed internet.

I think it is an on going conspiracy to make us by yet faster computers.

As for the article Can We Revers Global Warming.

I have my opinion and in no way want to distract from the article or disrespect the author, I have a high respect for Scott.

I would come more close to asking Will We reverse Global Warming If we Could.
My answer right now is no.

Can we prevent agricultural disasters in the future?
My answer now is maybe if we try.
Will we?
We are going to have to, if not we will see the end of civilization as we know it today.
I didn't say the end of civilization, I said as we know it today.
The amount of soil erosion in China alone is horrific.

When we had the hurricane here in Texas awhile back people were turning into animals at the gas station over nothing but a rumor.
I witnessed a wild man cuss out a poor clerk for running out of gas like she had anything to do with it.
Right after he stormed off like a mad man burning rubber down the street the fuel tanker showed up.
We have urban sprawl with no regard to mass transit ever included in the infrastructure.
We have people that live one mile from a chain store driving to work at the same chain store 30 miles away.
At the same time we have people that live one mile from the latter chain store driving to work to the former chain store.
So now we have two cars driving adding up 120 miles a day to go to work when they could reduce it down to 4 miles.
By simply changing were they work same job same company same everything.
If I lived one,mile from work I would walk.
We have an economy that started out with one person working to both people working so they can have more.
That economy has turned into both parents working just to make ends meet.
Now we have two cars on the road.
In Texas they are putting up toll roads left and right forcing the poor to drive on the feeder roads and stopping and starting all the time.
This uses fuel big time.
Fuel by the way that is being mixed with alcohol from corn which is to me the biggest agricultural and ecological disaster ever construed by man in a long time.

Next question is recycling really earth friendly?
In my opinion I dont think so in many but not all cases.

Look at the truck that comes by to pick it up it uses fuel.
It takes yet more fuel to recycle.
All of this pumping more carbon into the atmosphere wasting energy causing pollution just to recycle products we dont need or can do without anyway.

I had a guy ask me about wire size for low voltage DC lighting around his building.
I asked why low voltage DC.
He said to save energy.
My reply was he wasn't going to save energy, the energy he thinks he is saving is wasted in the transformer reducing it back down to low voltage DC from AC.

This is just an example of misconceptions on saving energy and reducing carbon emissions.
There is no free lunch.
Another example is a guy in the grocery store thinking he was getting a deal on cases of bottled water at the counter.
I said I make my own for almost nothing and put it in bottles myself with filters.

Not only am I saving money.
I am not buying bottled water in plastic bottles that uses fuel to make, delivered in a truck that uses fuel that gets tossed way after one use to be picked up by the recycle truck that uses fuel to go to a recycle place that uses fuel to recycle.
IF it doesn't end up as litter or end up in a land fill.

Bottled water is a pet peeve of mine if you cant tell.

So to answer your question Scott can we reverse global warming, yes we can but we are going to have to change our way of thinking big time and stop wasting.
We cant regulate what people sell that is their right but we can refuse to buy it that is our right.

I hope you didn't mind.
Worth
Worth1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2017   #21
Redbaron
Tomatovillian™
 
Redbaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,488
Default

Well worth, it seems the question for you should be changed from Can we reverse global warming? to Will we reverse global warming? Two entirely different things.

Either way, the agricultural component that I focused on must change or as you said civilization collapses and we have to wait till the next civilization rises to see if they do it right finally.

Only 60 Years of Farming Left If Soil Degradation Continues

I just thought since we really do need to fix the soils, would be nice if the policy makers knew that in all actuality, those two very different problems are actually flip sides to a single problem. Namely, there is more carbon missing from the agricultural soils worldwide than extra in the atmosphere. If we fix the soil, we fix global warming by default. Two bird with one stone and all that. No need for all these cap and trade or tax and spend schemes. We already spend billions every year subsidizing agriculture to produce far more corn and soy than the entire worlds population could possible eat. All we need to do is change the subsidy from corn to restoring the great tallgrass prairies. Then we can raise our cattle on grass instead of corn! Even grass makes 5 times more efficient bio-fuel than corn. We are actually subsidizing one of the least efficient forms of agriculture on the planet, and the one by far the worst on the environment. We fix that simple issue and we can do it for free, and both problems vanish.

Just try and find a fully functioning tallgrass prairie in the USA. I mean a real one with 4-12 foot tall grasses like switchgrass, big bluestem, Eastern Gammagrass, etc... It's all gone. Meanwhile people crying about saving the rainforest. Well sure rainforests are cool, but we have lots of rainforest in the world. Something like 97%-99% of the tallgrass prairies and oak savannas of the world are gone. No one is crying over them because they currently all grow corn.

Little did we know when we plowed them up...they were the planet's cooling system. Not the forests, but the grasslands and especially those extra tall fast growing C4 warm season grasses.
__________________
Scott

AKA The Redbaron

"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system."
Bill Mollison
co-founder of permaculture

Last edited by Redbaron; October 15, 2017 at 01:21 AM.
Redbaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2017   #22
Redbaron
Tomatovillian™
 
Redbaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,488
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLJ_ View Post
I've tried several times and haven't been able to get it to load. Thought perhaps it was a video which would be too large to load over this slow connection, but saw several reference reading it . . . what kind of document is it? Any reason you know of it would be difficult to load with a system that dispatches a pack mule to pick up bits and bytes in its saddlebags and trudge back with them, then make another trip for the next sentence?
Unfortunately I don't have anything to do with that website. They simply found me answering questions at Quora and asked me to write them one. I basically gave them one almost exactly like I write for Quora and they took it!

Maybe Quora has a faster load? Profile Scott Strough

I wrote something like 1300 answers on quora before anyone noticed enough to ask me to write for them. But if you do a search there you can probably find the same article in a very slightly different version.
__________________
Scott

AKA The Redbaron

"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system."
Bill Mollison
co-founder of permaculture
Redbaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2017   #23
Worth1
Tomatovillian™
 
Worth1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Den of Drunken Fools
Posts: 38,539
Default

Much of this has to do with the hate of the oil industry.
In my opinion it is far better to pump oil out of the ground than to grow corn to make plastics alcohol and biodiesel.
The very same environmentalist that want to save the planet are killing it by pushing corn
What are they thinking?
Ask just about any person where they think the US gets most of its oil from and they will say the Middle East.
This is not true by any stretch of the imagination.
We only get around 12% from the Persian gulf the vast majority of it comes from the Americas.
When people hear the words ((dependency on foreign oil)) they think the Middle East.
This is bait for them to grow that corn that kills the soil or to drill for oil in the US.
It has became a political football, one side wants to drill more the other wanting to grow more corn.
In reality the more corn you grow the more fertilizer you need to grow it coming from fossil fuel in one way or another.
The beautiful black once rich farm land just north of me is worthless without fertilizer.
And just about all they grow is corn miles and miles of corn.
Now it is sitting there plowed up and bare for the wind to blow it away.

It needs to have grasses growing on it with fat cows eating it for food in the way of beef.

Worth
Worth1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2017   #24
Redbaron
Tomatovillian™
 
Redbaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,488
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Worth1 View Post
Much of this has to do with the hate of the oil industry.
In my opinion it is far better to pump oil out of the ground than to grow corn to make plastics alcohol and biodiesel.
The very same environmentalist that want to save the planet are killing it by pushing corn
What are they thinking?
Ask just about any person where they think the US gets most of its oil from and they will say the Middle East.
This is not true by any stretch of the imagination.
We only get around 12% from the Persian gulf the vast majority of it comes from the Americas.
When people hear the words ((dependency on foreign oil)) they think the Middle East.
This is bait for them to grow that corn that kills the soil or to drill for oil in the US.
It has became a political football, one side wants to drill more the other wanting to grow more corn.
In reality the more corn you grow the more fertilizer you need to grow it coming from fossil fuel in one way or another.
The beautiful black once rich farm land just north of me is worthless without fertilizer.
And just about all they grow is corn miles and miles of corn.
Now it is sitting there plowed up and bare for the wind to blow it away.

It needs to have grasses growing on it with fat cows eating it for food in the way of beef.

Worth
Well said. That's the plan indeed. And no this plan I talk about is certainly not hating on oil. People forget without fossil fuels we would be burning wood, then we would have long ago deforested every tree in N America. Like Haiti did in small scale.

So the deal is this. We spend billions and billions of dollars on farm subsidies for crop insurance to insure that we continue to grow far more corn than needed.

This is purposely paid to insurance companies so as to make sure farmers do not gain any benefit from the subsidies and become independent enough to start raising beef on grass instead. Got to keep them poor and continue to drive most out of business. The plan was described by Earl Butz and continues to this day.

https://www.quora.com/Is-farming-rea...are-there-many

Richard Nixon and the 2000 Mile Tomato

My idea would do the exact opposite by allowing a small family farm to profit and give them the financial freedom to be the good stewards of the land all farmers want to be, but sometimes can't afford to be.
__________________
Scott

AKA The Redbaron

"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system."
Bill Mollison
co-founder of permaculture

Last edited by Redbaron; October 16, 2017 at 05:02 AM.
Redbaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2017   #25
Worth1
Tomatovillian™
 
Worth1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Den of Drunken Fools
Posts: 38,539
Default

I remember Butz and I was a kid.
I also try to buy as much local and in season as I can, even the potatoes I buy come from Texas.
Have been for many years.

Worth
Worth1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2017   #26
PureHarvest
Tomatovillian™
 
PureHarvest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Mid-Atlantic right on the line of Zone 7a and 7b
Posts: 1,369
Default

Scott, does your local Conservation District have a no-till drill you can rent?
Can you borrow/rent one from a neighbor?

As far as federal programs, have you looked into any of the EQIP programs with NRCS?

Size of your land farm does not disqualify you for program eligibility.
Tens of thousands of dollars are going to farms in my area that are tiny.

My program book is 150 pages and many of the rates will pay 70-100+ of the cost of the practice installed.
There are so many ways to get work done if you have a field office with personnel that have experience and are familiar with what can be done.
Or, you go to them and sign up for stuff as you become familiar with what is out there.
PM me your county, and I can give you some examples of what is available where you are.
PureHarvest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2017   #27
BigVanVader
Tomatovillian™
 
BigVanVader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Greenville, South Carolina
Posts: 3,099
Default

I haven't read it yet but will later. I will say that the ONLY way I see for real change to happen is a proliferation of localized food economies. Without that most will buy whatever is cheapest from Wal-Mart. Grants and subsidies should all be geared toward promoting and helping small, local, regenerative ag businesses. If we have learned anything this century it is that the bigger a corp., gov, business gets the more corrupt and $ hungry it gets. When you take farmers out of the equation, and put stockholders in their place you get what we have. Plus most consumers are totally uneducated about any of this. I fear for the future my children will grow up in & that is one reason I farm. To pass on the joy, knowledge, and ability to eat "clean" food and putting their health in their own hands.
BigVanVader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2017   #28
Redbaron
Tomatovillian™
 
Redbaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,488
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigVanVader View Post
I haven't read it yet but will later. I will say that the ONLY way I see for real change to happen is a proliferation of localized food economies. Without that most will buy whatever is cheapest from Wal-Mart. Grants and subsidies should all be geared toward promoting and helping small, local, regenerative ag businesses. If we have learned anything this century it is that the bigger a corp., gov, business gets the more corrupt and $ hungry it gets. When you take farmers out of the equation, and put stockholders in their place you get what we have. Plus most consumers are totally uneducated about any of this. I fear for the future my children will grow up in & that is one reason I farm. To pass on the joy, knowledge, and ability to eat "clean" food and putting their health in their own hands.
Yep that sums up part of it. Definitely. But the idea for the proof of concept it to prove it is scale-able. That's been part of the red baron project since I started it 5 years ago here at Tville.

I actually know how to ramp up the yields and profits with high input high intensity organic methods on my little 1/2 acre and 1/10th acre test plots. I could do that too. But nothing special there because those horticultural techniques are decidedly NOT scale-able. So I have not added a thing that actual farmers can use, only gardeners. To make it scale-able requires a whole new way of thinking. I think I have that solution, but without a proof of concept, it is just ideas floating around in my head. There is nothing a farmer can take to the bank. Which is precisely why I can't take it to the bank either BTW
__________________
Scott

AKA The Redbaron

"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system."
Bill Mollison
co-founder of permaculture
Redbaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2017   #29
Patihum
Tomatovillian™
 
Patihum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Southeast Kansas
Posts: 878
Default

Scott - There is a fully functioning tall grass prairie here in Kansas! While it is small when compared to the millions of acres of tallgrass prairie there once was at least it's still possible to see and experience it.

Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve was established in 1996. It is the only unit of the National Park System dedicated to the rich natural and cultural history of the tallgrass prairie ecosystem. This 10,894 acre portion of the once vast tallgrass prairie is being preserved as a critical resource for the benefit, education, and enjoyment of this and future generations. It is a unique private/public partnership between the National Park Service (the primary land manager) and The Nature Conservancy (the primary landowner).
Patihum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2017   #30
Redbaron
Tomatovillian™
 
Redbaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,488
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patihum View Post
Scott - There is a fully functioning tall grass prairie here in Kansas! While it is small when compared to the millions of acres of tallgrass prairie there once was at least it's still possible to see and experience it.

Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve was established in 1996. It is the only unit of the National Park System dedicated to the rich natural and cultural history of the tallgrass prairie ecosystem. This 10,894 acre portion of the once vast tallgrass prairie is being preserved as a critical resource for the benefit, education, and enjoyment of this and future generations. It is a unique private/public partnership between the National Park Service (the primary land manager) and The Nature Conservancy (the primary landowner).
Brilliant! How many bison roam through each year?
__________________
Scott

AKA The Redbaron

"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system."
Bill Mollison
co-founder of permaculture
Redbaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:57 AM.


★ Tomatoville® is a registered trademark of Commerce Holdings, LLC ★ All Content ©2022 Commerce Holdings, LLC ★