Let's talk about Brandywines - Page 4

gssgarden · February 6, 2015

parah -

Greg

Dutch · February 6, 2015

Thank you Camo for your interesting posts. I always enjoy reading what you have to say based on your observations. Post on Camo!!!
Thanks again,
Dutch

parah · February 6, 2015

If we are talking about Brandywines, does that include the varieties that have Brandywine as a parent like Liz Birt, and Bear Creek, and Gary'O Sena

Now I am getting excited! Might have to find space for a few more plants.

The original post was "Should I give Brandywine a try this year or pass it up?"

I'd suggest trying Bear Creek, it is 50% Brandywine, early, productive, and easy to grow.
If you love it, then maybe try growing its more finicky stingy parent.

camochef · February 6, 2015

Sun City Linda; Parah, and others,
I don't require others to defend my reasons or positions about Cowlick's Brandywine, although its nice to see some who feel that way. There's always some who are negative about everything. I named what I thought was an exceptional tasting and productive tomato after the nursery where I bought the plant...and after all it was a Brandywine. Not at all like the dozens of other Brandywines I was growing at the time.
Now the plant itself did have a great place in the corner of my fenced in garden at the base of the sandmound. It also had other Brandywines running down the fence in both directions. It was also an exceptional year as stated before. It also outperformed every other Brandywine in the garden and there were plenty of them, as well as hundreds of other large slicers of many colors. When I wanted a tomato to eat for myself, I went to the Cowlick's...They were larger, tasted better, and were my favorite.
Not only thin-skinned, small core, almost non-existent, but they made a great sauce, especially when combined with Cherokee Purple that year. Yes we made a lot of sauce from them as there were more than could be eaten on sandwiches or in salads.

Perhaps, I shouldn't have used the Brandywine name...but that's what it was, or was supposed to be. The only variety that comes close is Brandywine-Glicks, which runs somewhat behind in producing ripe tomatoes and always quits before Cowlick's.
Yes, I've grown thousands of varieties, always favoring the larger slicers, especially those with thin skins and small cores, but mostly those with great taste and good production. I also favor those with better than average disease resistance.
Stump of the World, Limbaugh's Legacy Potato Top are a couple of truely great tasting tomatoes in the Brandywine style, but both are very susceptible to early Blight and/or Septoria in my gardens so I don't grow them anymore. Ed's Millennium, and Mrs Benson are similar styles but just don't yield many tomatoes either, so I don't grow them anymore.
Cowlick's have been the best Brandywines for years now, but I've also decreased their numbers in favor of German Johnson-Benton Strain ( different types), which are NOT the typical German Johnsons available from different sources. But that's a whole different can of worms.

I want to thank all supporters and growers of Cowlick Brandywines. They can understand what I'm talking about as far as it being much superior to Brandywine-Sudduth's and others. Please enjoy!
Camo

Blueaussi · February 6, 2015

I think Greg is making good points. Maybe it would help to move the discussion to another thread that does not involve a specific individual. I don't think anyone means any disrespect for Camo, it's just that the backstories of the strains he has introduced are both well known and well documented.

I have seen the rush to claim a new strain in both the pepper and tomato community and been bothered by it. I've seen the same thing in commercial growers, although I think they're blatantly ripping off established and popular varieties for profit. So, I think a discussion on what constitutes a new strain instead of a seasonal fluke is a useful one to have.

jmsieglaff · February 6, 2015

I think the conversion is worth having, but what is worthy of naming a new strain will never be something universally agreed upon by all--at the end of the discussion, there will always be an agreement to disagree, at least a bit. The conversation is not pure science (I suppose unless you were doing full DNA analysis), but rather a fair amount of art mixed with science. Therefore there is not necessarily a 'right' answer.

Reading about the back stories of how these varieties have came to be has been most enjoyable.

Labradors2 · February 6, 2015

Camo,

As someone who gave up on growing Brandywine because it was SO late, and stingy in the north, I am very grateful that you found Cowlicks and spread it around.

I am really looking forward to growing it this year.

Linda

camochef · February 6, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueaussi

I think Greg is making good points. Maybe it would help to move the discussion to another thread that does not involve a specific individual. I don't think anyone means any disrespect for Camo, it's just that the backstories of the strains he has introduced are both well known and well documented.

I have seen the rush to claim a new strain in both the pepper and tomato community and been bothered by it. I've seen the same thing in commercial growers, although I think they're blatantly ripping off established and popular varieties for profit. So, I think a discussion on what constitutes a new strain instead of a seasonal fluke is a useful one to have.

I don't post much, over the years; but find myself stepping up about Brandywines...call it passion!
That is subsiding now in favor of the German-Johnson-Benton Strain...especially last years black cross.
So for the time being, as far as Cowlick's...I'm done!
Have a great gardening season in 2015
Camo

natural · February 6, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by camochef

I want to thank all supporters and growers of Cowlick Brandywines. They can understand what I'm talking about as far as it being much superior to Brandywine-Sudduth's and others. Please enjoy!
Camo

Count me among those! I grew Cowlick and Brear Creek for the first time last year. Both were great. I'm happy that they performed well here in the humid South. I'll be adding more of your recommendations to my future grow lists

.

Sun City Linda · February 6, 2015

Camo Thanks. Not trying to get into your fight, although not really a fight as much as it is opinion. Some pretty strong, including mine!

I think everybody who wants to can get together and make up some rules and agree to abide by them. Everybody who doesn't, won't. That's MY point. I am a member of the unofficial, online tomato gardening community. Last time I looked, we had not elected others to police our club. Therefore, we "vote" with our money when we purchase seed or with what we choose to grow in our own gardens.

parah · February 6, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by camochef

Sun City Linda; Parah, and others,
Stump of the World, Limbaugh's Legacy Potato Top are a couple of truely great tasting tomatoes in the Brandywine style, but both are very susceptible to early Blight and/or Septoria in my gardens
Camo

That is my favorite part of your posts, your reasons for tomato plant selections make sense to me and save me a huge amount of trial and error in my garden. I have one Limbaugh's Legacy Potato Top growing now and has 10 beautiful fruit, but is showing more early Blight than its tougher neighbors. A great tomato plant doesn't do me a blind bit of good if it dies from disease before the fruit blushes!

Is Cowlicks the most foliage disease resistant Brandywine you have found?

**carolyn137** · February 6, 2015

I've very much enjoyed reading the end of this thread, I was here for the beginning.

Some excellent points have been made. One that stands out for me is the variety that Craig Lehoullier and I named OTV Brandywine. I won't go into the background, you can read it at tania's website if you want to as to how much of it was really Brandywine, and should it have been called Brandywine.

No time to post more since Martha is headed down the hallway to my bedroom to bring lunch, which is more than amusing condsidering what I'm allowed to eat.

All for now,

Carolyn

Steelcurtain67 · February 6, 2015

There seems to be quite a difference of opinion here. I just thought I would offer the observation that in a few years (5-10) the cost of a genomic analysis will be down in the $100 dollar range and all these varieties can be checked to see how different they are. Also, there is going to be an opportunity to select varieties to cross breed to create the ULTIMATE tomato!

gssgarden · February 6, 2015

Ok, Just a few points then I HAVE to get work done...lol

To start, In NO WAY have I criticized Camo for what he did. I've made that point before so I hope he doesn't feel like he's being attacked by me. I read the thread and used Cowlicks as the example because that's the one I had a QUESTION...not an issue with. I was just reading his post. I'm trying to figure out how production, if good or bad, merits the title of a new 'strain'

SuncityLinda wrote - Yes, I agree with you in theory Greg but production as we know is often influenced by variables, like weather where as leaf type is leaf type, rain or shine.

EXACTLY!! there are too many variables from one garden to the next from CA to NC.

Camo wrote - I named what I thought was an exceptional tasting and productive tomato after the nursery where I bought the plant.

We certainly can't have taste as a factor can we?

I have to go back to my post back a page or two...

This may be silly but if I were to grow Cowlicks, (this is just an example) and it gives me 30 lbs of fruit every year for a few yrs, THEN the next yrs I get extremely LOW production, and continually get LOW production for yrs after, using the same exact practices, do I have a new Brandywine 'strain'??

Of course it wouldn't sell but...lol

I'm asking if you were to consider HIGH production, do we consider LOW production as well? Can't have it just one way.

Or is it that LOW production won't sell and it's not what people are looking for? LOL

Again, I'm trying to figure out how production, if good or bad, merits the title of a new 'strain'

Greg

btw, I love this site and all you guys too!! lol

gssgarden · February 6, 2015

and will someone PLEASE send me some Cowlicks seeds so I can get them in this weekend!!! lol

Greg

February 6, 2015	#47
Dutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b Posts: 1,831	Thank you Camo for your interesting posts. I always enjoy reading what you have to say based on your observations. Post on Camo!!! Thanks again, Dutch __________________ "Discretion is the better part of valor" Charles Churchill The intuitive mind is a gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. But we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. (paraphrased) Albert Einstein I come from a long line of sod busters, spanning back several centuries.

February 6, 2015	#48
parah Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Asia Posts: 152	If we are talking about Brandywines, does that include the varieties that have Brandywine as a parent like Liz Birt, and Bear Creek, and Gary'O Sena Now I am getting excited! Might have to find space for a few more plants. The original post was "Should I give Brandywine a try this year or pass it up?" I'd suggest trying Bear Creek, it is 50% Brandywine, early, productive, and easy to grow. If you love it, then maybe try growing its more finicky stingy parent. Last edited by parah; February 6, 2015 at 11:10 AM.

February 6, 2015	#57
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	I've very much enjoyed reading the end of this thread, I was here for the beginning. Some excellent points have been made. One that stands out for me is the variety that Craig Lehoullier and I named OTV Brandywine. I won't go into the background, you can read it at tania's website if you want to as to how much of it was really Brandywine, and should it have been called Brandywine. No time to post more since Martha is headed down the hallway to my bedroom to bring lunch, which is more than amusing condsidering what I'm allowed to eat. All for now, Carolyn __________________ Carolyn

February 6, 2015	#46
gssgarden Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: N.C. Posts: 1,820	parah - Greg

February 6, 2015	#49
camochef Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Posts: 707	Sun City Linda; Parah, and others, I don't require others to defend my reasons or positions about Cowlick's Brandywine, although its nice to see some who feel that way. There's always some who are negative about everything. I named what I thought was an exceptional tasting and productive tomato after the nursery where I bought the plant...and after all it was a Brandywine. Not at all like the dozens of other Brandywines I was growing at the time. Now the plant itself did have a great place in the corner of my fenced in garden at the base of the sandmound. It also had other Brandywines running down the fence in both directions. It was also an exceptional year as stated before. It also outperformed every other Brandywine in the garden and there were plenty of them, as well as hundreds of other large slicers of many colors. When I wanted a tomato to eat for myself, I went to the Cowlick's...They were larger, tasted better, and were my favorite. Not only thin-skinned, small core, almost non-existent, but they made a great sauce, especially when combined with Cherokee Purple that year. Yes we made a lot of sauce from them as there were more than could be eaten on sandwiches or in salads. Perhaps, I shouldn't have used the Brandywine name...but that's what it was, or was supposed to be. The only variety that comes close is Brandywine-Glicks, which runs somewhat behind in producing ripe tomatoes and always quits before Cowlick's. Yes, I've grown thousands of varieties, always favoring the larger slicers, especially those with thin skins and small cores, but mostly those with great taste and good production. I also favor those with better than average disease resistance. Stump of the World, Limbaugh's Legacy Potato Top are a couple of truely great tasting tomatoes in the Brandywine style, but both are very susceptible to early Blight and/or Septoria in my gardens so I don't grow them anymore. Ed's Millennium, and Mrs Benson are similar styles but just don't yield many tomatoes either, so I don't grow them anymore. Cowlick's have been the best Brandywines for years now, but I've also decreased their numbers in favor of German Johnson-Benton Strain ( different types), which are NOT the typical German Johnsons available from different sources. But that's a whole different can of worms. I want to thank all supporters and growers of Cowlick Brandywines. They can understand what I'm talking about as far as it being much superior to Brandywine-Sudduth's and others. Please enjoy! Camo

February 6, 2015	#50
Blueaussi Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: South Carolina Zone 8a Posts: 1,205	I think Greg is making good points. Maybe it would help to move the discussion to another thread that does not involve a specific individual. I don't think anyone means any disrespect for Camo, it's just that the backstories of the strains he has introduced are both well known and well documented. I have seen the rush to claim a new strain in both the pepper and tomato community and been bothered by it. I've seen the same thing in commercial growers, although I think they're blatantly ripping off established and popular varieties for profit. So, I think a discussion on what constitutes a new strain instead of a seasonal fluke is a useful one to have.

February 6, 2015	#51
jmsieglaff Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Southern WI Posts: 2,742	I think the conversion is worth having, but what is worthy of naming a new strain will never be something universally agreed upon by all--at the end of the discussion, there will always be an agreement to disagree, at least a bit. The conversation is not pure science (I suppose unless you were doing full DNA analysis), but rather a fair amount of art mixed with science. Therefore there is not necessarily a 'right' answer. Reading about the back stories of how these varieties have came to be has been most enjoyable.

February 6, 2015	#52
Labradors2 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Ontario Posts: 3,887	Camo, As someone who gave up on growing Brandywine because it was SO late, and stingy in the north, I am very grateful that you found Cowlicks and spread it around. I am really looking forward to growing it this year. Linda

February 6, 2015	#55
Sun City Linda Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: SoCal Inland Posts: 2,705	Camo Thanks. Not trying to get into your fight, although not really a fight as much as it is opinion. Some pretty strong, including mine! I think everybody who wants to can get together and make up some rules and agree to abide by them. Everybody who doesn't, won't. That's MY point. I am a member of the unofficial, online tomato gardening community. Last time I looked, we had not elected others to police our club. Therefore, we "vote" with our money when we purchase seed or with what we choose to grow in our own gardens.

February 6, 2015	#58
Steelcurtain67 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: PA Posts: 4	There seems to be quite a difference of opinion here. I just thought I would offer the observation that in a few years (5-10) the cost of a genomic analysis will be down in the $100 dollar range and all these varieties can be checked to see how different they are. Also, there is going to be an opportunity to select varieties to cross breed to create the ULTIMATE tomato!