Orange Jazz - Page 5

BigVanVader · August 3, 2015

Nice! Can't wait to grow these sexy maters

Fred Hempel · August 3, 2015

OK then. The project was funded.

For backers: Please contact me through kickstarter, which will get us connected by email, if you have a fall garden and getting seeds ASAP is an issue for you. Seeds for some of the varieties are ready to go now, and some will be ready in a week or so.

Slg Garden · August 3, 2015

Congratulations!

heirloomtomaguy · August 3, 2015

Congrats Fred!

tam91 · August 3, 2015

Woohoo!

Barb_FL · August 3, 2015

Excellent!!! For the next 2 days, let's keep this thread bumped so more people will participate.

Fred Hempel · August 3, 2015

Perhaps we can get a moderator to ban anyone that doesn't participate.

Or maybe not.

AdrianaG · August 4, 2015

Awesome! So glad this funding mechanism worked for you. Win-win!

Fred Hempel · August 4, 2015

The end is so close, we can Taste it.

Barb_FL · August 4, 2015

For those who don't want to miss out, offer is down to the last 24 hours.

Fred Hempel · August 4, 2015

There is an elephant in the room. I'm going to talk about it. I'm going to discuss why I am setting up an "exclusive" group of collaborators who have to pay me for the right to work with me for the next 10 years.

For the past 10 years I have taken a meandering road to become a tomato breeder. I started out with an academic foundation in plant biology and genetics, and a passion for tomatoes.

I started breeding tomatoes over 10 years ago, but I had so much to learn. If I made one good assumption, near the beginning, it was that my breeding would improve if I started farming. That turned out to be true, because when you are trying to grow tomatoes for a living, the shortcomings (or surprising strengths) of any new variety eventually become evident. No matter how dense one is at times.

Perhaps another good decision was to focus on flavor first, and other things second.

I now have a pretty nice portfolio of flavorful tomatoes, and my goal for the next 10 years is to stop meandering and to as efficiently as possible create new tomato varieties that small farmers can make money on. We have to increase shelf-life of great-tasting tomatoes so we small farmers don't lose hundreds or thousands of pounds of tomatoes before we can pick them, during a heat wave.

I also want to create new varieties that are as gourmet as all get-out, but also resistant to the diseases that can wipe out a farmer's or gardener's crop.

Since I don't have all diseases, and all weather patterns, on my farm -- the only reasonable way forward is for me to collaborate with adventurous farmers and gardeners interested in putting our most interesting new varieties to the test.

The obvious question many will ask at this point is "Why not send out your new varieties, for free, to volunteers?"

Firstly, I have business partnerships that preclude this option (my tomatoes are no longer exclusively mine). And even if I didn't, I absolutely do not want to go down a pathway where my mediocre varieties, or mediocre variants from varieties I send out, are what people know of my work. Unfortunately, there is no way around this happening if my unfinished lines are distributed freely.

Basically, I think it is unfair that Jim Myers has had to be associated with criticism of P20 (and other bad blue varieties), when P20 was not a finished product that he intended to release (it was "leaked" from his lab). He should be judged by finished tomatoes like Indigo Cherry Drops. My own conclusions about Jim Myers program were unfairly critical until just recently, in large part because of the P20-related blue varieties.

I believe that breeders, like other entrepreneurs, should be allowed to control their breeding, and should also be compensated for their innovation. Indeed I also believe that they should NOT be expected to freely distribute all of their trade secrets.

I know this seems to go against the grain of the wonderful seed-sharing, and community attitude found at Tomatoville. But I really don't think it should.

It is great that many folks have not taken a business-like approach to the distribution of their new innovations. There are countless examples of direct release of exceptional new varieties into the public domain. It is great when amateurs and hobbyists who do not need to make money from tomato breeding, freely release great varieties. It is great when Universities release varieties for the public good (although this is not done so freely anymore either).

But, immediate and direct release of varieties without any compensation should not be a "rule". What other type of business (yes, breeding is my business) requires one to take no profit from creating new products? Frankly, I am sure that many who want all seeds to be open-source work in jobs that are predicated on protection of trade secrets and compensation for innovation. Furthermore, even if a breeder does create something new, it can be legally (and gleefully) taken apart and re-assembled by both amateurs and professionals -- witness the numerous folks using SunGold to create new varieties. Which is why I think it is silly that people get all worked up about hybrids. Yes, hybrids are based on trade secrets, but all of the genes in a hybrid are freely available to be used.

My kickstarter project, discussed in this thread, is a continuation of my efforts to find a cadre of people to trial our tomatoes over the next 10 years. These folks will get access to new varieties (some very good, and some with unforeseen problems) and they will give feedback. In return, they will get to grow the new varieties before they are released to the public. They will also be able, in some cases, to get early access to varieties that are good candidates to resist a particular pathogen that affects their tomatoes. They, however, will not be free to distribute seeds freely, prior to release. And we will expect our collaborators to give us pointed and critical feedback, but only in the Facebook group set up for the project.

Our group, and my approach, is certainly not for everyone. Although I have tried to give folks a feeling for what kinds of tomatoes I am working on, I am not going to be posting photos of our "secret" projects going forward.

And, I won't be looking for any more Collaborating Members after September 1, when we will stop accepting new members via our website. We have enough now. It is time to focus on organizing breeding projects, and trialing by our Collaborating Members.

I will still release some new varieties directly, and freely. And I will talk about our released lines. I will also continue to generally post about my lines and other varieties that I like as well. No more spam about our Collaborating Member program. Thankfully.

BigVanVader · August 5, 2015

I agree Fred, you make a great product, you should be reimbursed and have control over said product. I would have loved to be a full collaborating member but unfortunately I just couldn't justify spending that much money at present, even though I feel it would a great experience and a heck of a deal in the long term. Good luck with everything and I hope your varieties continue to perform well in my region.

Fred Hempel · August 5, 2015

Thanks BVV. No worries about the Collaborating Membership. I'm going to allow anyone who did kickstarter to upgrade if it makes sense to them later (and maybe after they have tried the first batch of varieties). I know how tight $$ is.

Fred Hempel · August 5, 2015

35 minutes

AdrianaG · August 5, 2015

5...
.....4...
..........3...
...............2...
....................1...

August 3, 2015	#64
heirloomtomaguy Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: glendora ca Posts: 2,560	Congrats Fred! __________________ “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

August 3, 2015	#65
tam91 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Crystal Lake IL Posts: 2,484	Woohoo! __________________ Tracy

August 4, 2015	#71
Fred Hempel Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Sunol, CA Posts: 2,723	There is an elephant in the room. I'm going to talk about it. I'm going to discuss why I am setting up an "exclusive" group of collaborators who have to pay me for the right to work with me for the next 10 years. For the past 10 years I have taken a meandering road to become a tomato breeder. I started out with an academic foundation in plant biology and genetics, and a passion for tomatoes. I started breeding tomatoes over 10 years ago, but I had so much to learn. If I made one good assumption, near the beginning, it was that my breeding would improve if I started farming. That turned out to be true, because when you are trying to grow tomatoes for a living, the shortcomings (or surprising strengths) of any new variety eventually become evident. No matter how dense one is at times. Perhaps another good decision was to focus on flavor first, and other things second. I now have a pretty nice portfolio of flavorful tomatoes, and my goal for the next 10 years is to stop meandering and to as efficiently as possible create new tomato varieties that small farmers can make money on. We have to increase shelf-life of great-tasting tomatoes so we small farmers don't lose hundreds or thousands of pounds of tomatoes before we can pick them, during a heat wave. I also want to create new varieties that are as gourmet as all get-out, but also resistant to the diseases that can wipe out a farmer's or gardener's crop. Since I don't have all diseases, and all weather patterns, on my farm -- the only reasonable way forward is for me to collaborate with adventurous farmers and gardeners interested in putting our most interesting new varieties to the test. The obvious question many will ask at this point is "Why not send out your new varieties, for free, to volunteers?" Firstly, I have business partnerships that preclude this option (my tomatoes are no longer exclusively mine). And even if I didn't, I absolutely do not want to go down a pathway where my mediocre varieties, or mediocre variants from varieties I send out, are what people know of my work. Unfortunately, there is no way around this happening if my unfinished lines are distributed freely. Basically, I think it is unfair that Jim Myers has had to be associated with criticism of P20 (and other bad blue varieties), when P20 was not a finished product that he intended to release (it was "leaked" from his lab). He should be judged by finished tomatoes like Indigo Cherry Drops. My own conclusions about Jim Myers program were unfairly critical until just recently, in large part because of the P20-related blue varieties. I believe that breeders, like other entrepreneurs, should be allowed to control their breeding, and should also be compensated for their innovation. Indeed I also believe that they should NOT be expected to freely distribute all of their trade secrets. I know this seems to go against the grain of the wonderful seed-sharing, and community attitude found at Tomatoville. But I really don't think it should. It is great that many folks have not taken a business-like approach to the distribution of their new innovations. There are countless examples of direct release of exceptional new varieties into the public domain. It is great when amateurs and hobbyists who do not need to make money from tomato breeding, freely release great varieties. It is great when Universities release varieties for the public good (although this is not done so freely anymore either). But, immediate and direct release of varieties without any compensation should not be a "rule". What other type of business (yes, breeding is my business) requires one to take no profit from creating new products? Frankly, I am sure that many who want all seeds to be open-source work in jobs that are predicated on protection of trade secrets and compensation for innovation. Furthermore, even if a breeder does create something new, it can be legally (and gleefully) taken apart and re-assembled by both amateurs and professionals -- witness the numerous folks using SunGold to create new varieties. Which is why I think it is silly that people get all worked up about hybrids. Yes, hybrids are based on trade secrets, but all of the genes in a hybrid are freely available to be used. My kickstarter project, discussed in this thread, is a continuation of my efforts to find a cadre of people to trial our tomatoes over the next 10 years. These folks will get access to new varieties (some very good, and some with unforeseen problems) and they will give feedback. In return, they will get to grow the new varieties before they are released to the public. They will also be able, in some cases, to get early access to varieties that are good candidates to resist a particular pathogen that affects their tomatoes. They, however, will not be free to distribute seeds freely, prior to release. And we will expect our collaborators to give us pointed and critical feedback, but only in the Facebook group set up for the project. Our group, and my approach, is certainly not for everyone. Although I have tried to give folks a feeling for what kinds of tomatoes I am working on, I am not going to be posting photos of our "secret" projects going forward. And, I won't be looking for any more Collaborating Members after September 1, when we will stop accepting new members via our website. We have enough now. It is time to focus on organizing breeding projects, and trialing by our Collaborating Members. I will still release some new varieties directly, and freely. And I will talk about our released lines. I will also continue to generally post about my lines and other varieties that I like as well. No more spam about our Collaborating Member program. Thankfully. Last edited by Fred Hempel; August 4, 2015 at 11:58 PM.

August 3, 2015	#61
BigVanVader Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Greenville, South Carolina Posts: 3,099	Nice! Can't wait to grow these sexy maters

August 3, 2015	#63
Slg Garden Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Seattle area Posts: 76	Congratulations!

August 3, 2015	#66
Barb_FL Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Indialantic, Florida Posts: 2,000	Excellent!!! For the next 2 days, let's keep this thread bumped so more people will participate.

August 4, 2015	#68
AdrianaG Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Georgia Posts: 153	Awesome! So glad this funding mechanism worked for you. Win-win!

August 5, 2015	#72
BigVanVader Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Greenville, South Carolina Posts: 3,099	I agree Fred, you make a great product, you should be reimbursed and have control over said product. I would have loved to be a full collaborating member but unfortunately I just couldn't justify spending that much money at present, even though I feel it would a great experience and a heck of a deal in the long term. Good luck with everything and I hope your varieties continue to perform well in my region.