OP Onion - alternative to Copra - Page 2

tjg911 · January 31, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyolf

I don't know that Copra stores better than Hamlet or infinity in an absolute sense: I've never grown them side by side and watched them go bad in storage. Since every year will be different, it might not be fair to say the Copras lasted until early June, while the brand X only until mid-May.

And some years I run out of onions before they start to get soft!

AS I recall, Prince seemed like it went bad faster, and Infinity and Copra lasted the longest. Fortress produced more Jumbo bulbs nearing 1 lb...that my wife complained about, suggesting I bring a saw in to cut them down to manageable pieces!

Stokes sells in packet quantities in almost all varieties. Google them up... they're on the web!

i had a lot of copra one year and i was not able to use them until later than normal. i dig the copra onions about 8/10 each year and they last nicely until 8/10 the next year but that one year they lasted until mid october! now they were not as good as they were say in may or june, a little soft but not bad and completely edible. now that's 16 months in storage. copra are pretty sweet when 1st dug too and rock hard. mine are still rock hard and pretty sweet tho copra is not a sweet onion. an excellent onion, unbeatable for me. add red wing for a red onion and it keeps fine for 8-10 months.

tom

tom

kath · January 31, 2012

Could you describe your storage conditions, Tom? I've never been able to keep Copra or Red Wing that long.

Thanks,
Kath

blokesmom · January 31, 2012

Tom, where do you store your copras?

tjg911 · January 31, 2012

i start my seeds now and plant out the 1st week of april not later then 4/15. the larger the tops by mid june the larger the onion. i space them 6" on center in a bed 4' X 12'. maybe how i grow them has an effect or my soil too, who knows. i add bone meal and compost to the bed when i transplant. i mulch with shredded leaves to suppress weeds no later than 7 days after transplanting or weeding is a problem, retain moisture and cool the soil. i fertilize just 3 times spraying nh fish and seaweed. onions require 1" of water per week.

stop water when tops start to tip over and if a lot of rainy days are expected then i gamble leaving them in the ground. if the tops have been pushed over for a few days and a lot of rain is coming i dig them immediately. too much water late in the season causes them to take it up and may effect drying and storage imo.

when 25% of the tops have tipped over i use a bow rake to push the tops down to the ground at the base. i let them sit until the greens die back but not turn brown and dry about 7 days. then i dig and lay them on the ground covering the bulbs as good as i can with the tops. they lie there 7-10 days even if it rains.

then i move them to the barn and i lay them on drying racks. these are wood frames with welded wire fence covered with chicken wire attached to the frame. i have 2 racks. they are about 30" wide and 6' long set on saw horses. i lay the onions on them and try not to touch the bulbs but the greens do over lay bulbs. i leave the door open, it faces east and does not allow direct sun light on the racks. there is 1 window at the roof line on the south side i leave open. air circulation is not great but that's the best i can do. the barn is under trees and is not out in full sun but it is hot in there.

the onions stay on the racks until mid october by then the tops are dry and they are cured. if you cut the top off the bulb and squeeze it at the neck there should not be any moisture, it should be bone dry otherwise they are not fully dried, for me they are always done by mid october. i cut off the tops and trim the roots to about 3/8". i put the copra into a 50 pound net onion bag and the same for the red wing.

then i put them in my basement on a shelf. it is dry down there but easily 70 degrees in mid october. today it is 52-55 degrees and they are on the shelves still, normally i put them in the fridge in the basement by now but i forgot. onions storage best at 37 degrees 40% humidity. sometimes i get one or two to sprout or go bad but these 2 varieties seldom have a problem. mars and alisa craig exhibition did not store as well so i stopped growing them.

i had an excellent harvest last year and have a ton of large onions today, probably only eaten 25% of each variety. the copra will easily last me until august before i can eat them unless i start to give them away. i do think copra start to degrade by 12 months but do store longer. the red wing are good until about may and i need to start eating more of them as they don't keep quite as long but they have excellent storage. hard to beat either of these 2 but they are hybrids, i have no experience with any op onions.

tom

kath · January 31, 2012

Thanks so much, Tom, for sharing all the details- I'm going to try to incorporate all of them that I can replicate this year and see if it makes a difference. I've got Copra and Ailsa Craig started as of Jan. 16th, along with Red Wing and 4 other red hybrids as well as Rossa di Milano- hoping to see which ones produce, taste and store the best for us.

kath

Full Moon · January 31, 2012

I too appreciate all the info Tom.

I grew onions for the first time last year and loved it. Based on the info you wrote I now know why they are not store too well.

When I placed my order at Johnny's, Copra was out of stock and I went for Patterson but it's an F1. Should be good though.

I will be growing 3 yellows and 3 reds. The alliums are doing fantastically in our community garden.

tjg911 · January 31, 2012

apologies to the op, your thread is getting hijacked!

kath,

i used to grow alisa craig exhibition but this is why i stopped. while the onions were huge, doubles were the problem. now i knew ace did not store a real long time but for a sweet onion it stored well - into late january. the doubles caused 2 smaller bulbs vs the 1 which would have been bigger, usually much bigger, but the real problem was rot. i saw the pattern after a while - any double was more likely to rot before maturity/digging or on the rack drying. doubles did not store as long and i had to use them 1st. ace just became a pita and i dropped it. your results may be different but maybe not, keep an eye out if you get doubles. if you grow just a dozen or 2 of ace no big deal but i grew about 64 and that was too many to keep up with the doubles and to lose to rot. i'd never grow ace again.

tom

fortyonenorth · January 31, 2012

No need to apologize. I, too, am interested in your techniques, Tom. BTW, what does "double" mean. I see this mentioned a lot in the catalogs, usually in the context of "...very few doubles."

kath · February 1, 2012

I've grown ACE for the past 2 years and like it's sweetness for using raw in summer/fall dishes and for drying even though it doesn't keep nearly as long as Copra- so since I still have good seed, I'm keeping it in the line-up again for this year knowing I'll just use them first. DH loves red onions in everything, so the goal this year is to find a real winner in that category. I have seen the "doubles" you described but didn't make a connection with rotting as yet...the doubles look pretty normal on the exterior but seem to have 2 "cores" and beneath the outer skin are like two onions that have molded togther- probably a poor description, but the best I can come up with at this hour.

Maybe Tom will be back to make it clearer.

kath

tjg911 · February 1, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by fortyonenorth

No need to apologize. I, too, am interested in your techniques, Tom. BTW, what does "double" mean. I see this mentioned a lot in the catalogs, usually in the context of "...very few doubles."

kath stated it but i'll add more. doubles are when 2 bulbs grow instead of 1. they both together are smaller than the 1 would have been based upon typical size for ace and they are prone to rotting. i think that is cuz they aren't wrapped tightly by the skin. like in garlic a tight wrapper keeps the cloves fresh longer and when the wrapper starts to loosen the cloves start to dry out.

i liked ace, it is very sweet and stores long for such a sweet onion but the doubles just drove me away. surprisingly, copra is pretty sweet especially early on. typically i think a long storage onion would have high sulfur compounds and not be sweet. i used to eat the ace 1st and not start the copras until february but now with just red wing and copra i start the copra in august or september and i'm amazed at the sweetness. i'd grow ace only if i had no other choice.

tom

yopper · February 7, 2012

Ok Tom ya got me convinced! My candys are starting to sprout and I just got done sorting them.( dang I hate that job ) So I'am going to try a bundle of COPRA this year! I will think of you when I tear up pealing them. LOL YOPPER

tjg911 · February 8, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by yopper

Ok Tom ya got me convinced! My candys are starting to sprout and I just got done sorting them.( dang I hate that job ) So I'am going to try a bundle of COPRA this year! I will think of you when I tear up pealing them. LOL YOPPER

hey yopper, how's it going? this is about the time for ace to sprout in my experience. i assume you dig yours a few weeks after i do due to your climate and latitude, i'd dig ace about 8/10 but i plant about 4/10. my ace would be sprouting by now, starting usually about 2 weeks ago.

i just went thru each bag of my red wing and copra onions last friday and they are not in the fridge as they normally would have been for the past month cuz i forgot! not one copra is soft or sprouting, all are hard and in perfect shape, i'd expect no less from copra. i had 1 red wing that was a little soft and one that was bad, actually i would have expected no problems but that's not too bad. remember i have about 3 dozen red wing all 2.5 to 3.25" so they are pretty good sized. the copra are smaller about 1.5 - 2.25" and i have about 5 dozen. i prefer onions a little smaller as for 1 person i don't need onions the size that ace would get to.

you won't get huge onions from copra, at least i don't, i plant both varieties 6" on center. in your soil yours may get larger cuz i know your ace were ENORMOUS in size. stop growing ace and you can give your backhoe a break!

tom

yopper · February 9, 2012

HEY Tom I'am doing good! Mild winter here ,not much snow to shovel put on a # or two!! My onions must have thought it was spring after the first of the year and they wanted to grow. Maybe them copra will try to compete with the candy and I will have to fire up the backho to get them out of the ground! (I hope) Getting in the gardening mood I started some leeks yesterday. Tom do you store your onions where it's light or do you keep them where it's dark and do you think it would a difference ether way? YOPPER

Farmette · February 9, 2012

So, are all of you saying that you save onions from last summer's harvest to plant this year?

tjg911 · February 9, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by yopper

Tom do you store your onions where it's light or do you keep them where it's dark and do you think it would a difference ether way? YOPPER

i don't think it is good to store them where it is bright even if cool but not sure. mine are in the basement where it is dim but not dark during the daytime. now that i got them into the basement fridge they are in the dark at 40 degrees.

So, are all of you saying that you save onions from last summer's harvest to plant this year?

no, you plant plants or seed them in growing medium. you can plant sets which are onions from last year. sets do poorly compared to plants or seed. they bolt easily and store poorly.

tom

January 31, 2012	#19
tjg911 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: zone 5b northwest connecticut Posts: 2,570	i start my seeds now and plant out the 1st week of april not later then 4/15. the larger the tops by mid june the larger the onion. i space them 6" on center in a bed 4' X 12'. maybe how i grow them has an effect or my soil too, who knows. i add bone meal and compost to the bed when i transplant. i mulch with shredded leaves to suppress weeds no later than 7 days after transplanting or weeding is a problem, retain moisture and cool the soil. i fertilize just 3 times spraying nh fish and seaweed. onions require 1" of water per week. stop water when tops start to tip over and if a lot of rainy days are expected then i gamble leaving them in the ground. if the tops have been pushed over for a few days and a lot of rain is coming i dig them immediately. too much water late in the season causes them to take it up and may effect drying and storage imo. when 25% of the tops have tipped over i use a bow rake to push the tops down to the ground at the base. i let them sit until the greens die back but not turn brown and dry about 7 days. then i dig and lay them on the ground covering the bulbs as good as i can with the tops. they lie there 7-10 days even if it rains. then i move them to the barn and i lay them on drying racks. these are wood frames with welded wire fence covered with chicken wire attached to the frame. i have 2 racks. they are about 30" wide and 6' long set on saw horses. i lay the onions on them and try not to touch the bulbs but the greens do over lay bulbs. i leave the door open, it faces east and does not allow direct sun light on the racks. there is 1 window at the roof line on the south side i leave open. air circulation is not great but that's the best i can do. the barn is under trees and is not out in full sun but it is hot in there. the onions stay on the racks until mid october by then the tops are dry and they are cured. if you cut the top off the bulb and squeeze it at the neck there should not be any moisture, it should be bone dry otherwise they are not fully dried, for me they are always done by mid october. i cut off the tops and trim the roots to about 3/8". i put the copra into a 50 pound net onion bag and the same for the red wing. then i put them in my basement on a shelf. it is dry down there but easily 70 degrees in mid october. today it is 52-55 degrees and they are on the shelves still, normally i put them in the fridge in the basement by now but i forgot. onions storage best at 37 degrees 40% humidity. sometimes i get one or two to sprout or go bad but these 2 varieties seldom have a problem. mars and alisa craig exhibition did not store as well so i stopped growing them. i had an excellent harvest last year and have a ton of large onions today, probably only eaten 25% of each variety. the copra will easily last me until august before i can eat them unless i start to give them away. i do think copra start to degrade by 12 months but do store longer. the red wing are good until about may and i need to start eating more of them as they don't keep quite as long but they have excellent storage. hard to beat either of these 2 but they are hybrids, i have no experience with any op onions. tom __________________ I need a hero I’m holding out for a hero ‘til the end of the night He’s gotta be strong And he’s gotta be fast And he’s gotta be fresh from the fight I need a hero I’m holding out for a hero ‘til the morning light He’s gotta be sure And it’s gotta be soon And he’s gotta be larger than life

January 31, 2012	#22
tjg911 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: zone 5b northwest connecticut Posts: 2,570	apologies to the op, your thread is getting hijacked! kath, i used to grow alisa craig exhibition but this is why i stopped. while the onions were huge, doubles were the problem. now i knew ace did not store a real long time but for a sweet onion it stored well - into late january. the doubles caused 2 smaller bulbs vs the 1 which would have been bigger, usually much bigger, but the real problem was rot. i saw the pattern after a while - any double was more likely to rot before maturity/digging or on the rack drying. doubles did not store as long and i had to use them 1st. ace just became a pita and i dropped it. your results may be different but maybe not, keep an eye out if you get doubles. if you grow just a dozen or 2 of ace no big deal but i grew about 64 and that was too many to keep up with the doubles and to lose to rot. i'd never grow ace again. tom __________________ I need a hero I’m holding out for a hero ‘til the end of the night He’s gotta be strong And he’s gotta be fast And he’s gotta be fresh from the fight I need a hero I’m holding out for a hero ‘til the morning light He’s gotta be sure And it’s gotta be soon And he’s gotta be larger than life

January 31, 2012	#17
kath Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: zone 6b, PA Posts: 5,664	Could you describe your storage conditions, Tom? I've never been able to keep Copra or Red Wing that long. Thanks, Kath

January 31, 2012	#18
blokesmom Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: WMass zone 6a Posts: 26	Tom, where do you store your copras?

January 31, 2012	#21
Full Moon Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Montréal, Canada Posts: 347	I too appreciate all the info Tom. I grew onions for the first time last year and loved it. Based on the info you wrote I now know why they are not store too well. When I placed my order at Johnny's, Copra was out of stock and I went for Patterson but it's an F1. Should be good though. I will be growing 3 yellows and 3 reds. The alliums are doing fantastically in our community garden.

January 31, 2012	#23
fortyonenorth Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: NW Indiana Posts: 1,150	No need to apologize. I, too, am interested in your techniques, Tom. BTW, what does "double" mean. I see this mentioned a lot in the catalogs, usually in the context of "...very few doubles."

February 1, 2012	#24
kath Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: zone 6b, PA Posts: 5,664	I've grown ACE for the past 2 years and like it's sweetness for using raw in summer/fall dishes and for drying even though it doesn't keep nearly as long as Copra- so since I still have good seed, I'm keeping it in the line-up again for this year knowing I'll just use them first. DH loves red onions in everything, so the goal this year is to find a real winner in that category. I have seen the "doubles" you described but didn't make a connection with rotting as yet...the doubles look pretty normal on the exterior but seem to have 2 "cores" and beneath the outer skin are like two onions that have molded togther- probably a poor description, but the best I can come up with at this hour. Maybe Tom will be back to make it clearer. kath

February 7, 2012	#26
yopper Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: U.P. Michigan Posts: 91	Ok Tom ya got me convinced! My candys are starting to sprout and I just got done sorting them.( dang I hate that job ) So I'am going to try a bundle of COPRA this year! I will think of you when I tear up pealing them. LOL YOPPER

February 9, 2012	#28
yopper Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: U.P. Michigan Posts: 91	HEY Tom I'am doing good! Mild winter here ,not much snow to shovel put on a # or two!! My onions must have thought it was spring after the first of the year and they wanted to grow. Maybe them copra will try to compete with the candy and I will have to fire up the backho to get them out of the ground! (I hope) Getting in the gardening mood I started some leeks yesterday. Tom do you store your onions where it's light or do you keep them where it's dark and do you think it would a difference ether way? YOPPER

February 9, 2012	#29
Farmette Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2009 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 985	So, are all of you saying that you save onions from last summer's harvest to plant this year?