Growing in Non-Food Safe Containers

whistler · May 28, 2012

What are the risks in growing food in non-food safe containers like orange Home Depot buckets? I bought 200 of them off of Craigslist last month (already drilled for drainage, used last season for the previous owner's container garden). Did I waste my money, or can I use them to grow my eggplants and peppers? Any thoughts on alternate uses so it's not a total loss?

Chrissykin · May 28, 2012

I will most likely be alone but I wouldn't use them. The chemical leach scares the crap out of me. I loved the idea of the earthtainer but went with Earthboxes for that very reason.

dpurdy · May 28, 2012

whistler,

Plastic containers that you may consider using to grow food will need to be from plastics Nos. 1, 2, 4 and 5. Find out the plastic number by looking on the bottom of plastic containers. There is usually a recycling sign that is a circle made up of three arrows; inside the arrows there is a number--this is the number that you need to pay attention to. Plastic containers and plastic wraps made of No. 3 have PVC in them, and the ill effects could percolate through the plant into your body. Styrofoam cups are made of plastic No. 6, and these have been found to have cancerous effects if used excessively. No. 7 contains bisphenol A and is harmful to the behavioral growth of children.
Most 5 or 7 gallon buckets that I've used or seen, are listed as a No.2. As stated above, you shouldn't use plastic containers with the recycling numbers: No.3, No.6, and No.7. Yours should be fine. That's a big stack of buckets.

DP

Rockporter · May 29, 2012

I'm using Lowe's 5 gallon buckets for my self watering containers and think that question came up before I purchased them and I believe they are of the right #. I don't know about the orange buckets from HD.

ricklynchcore · May 29, 2012

Personally, I think the fear is overblown. I mean, I think of god what, the commercial growers are using with polluted water sources, harmful chemicals, crappy fertilizers, conditions of bacterial contamination, packaging made out of who knows what, dangerous canning techniques, a disregard of U.S. law, (Brazilian OJ), am I going to over worry my Earthtainer leaching? I don't think so. So I wouldn't necessarily create a 200 pod farm from orange HD buckets, but if your going to use a few for a backyard garden, I think you will survive. Just an opinion, I'm no scientist.

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Chrissykin · May 29, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricklynchcore

Personally, I think the fear is overblown. I mean, I think of god what, the commercial growers are using with polluted water sources, harmful chemicals, crappy fertilizers, conditions of bacterial contamination, packaging made out of who knows what, dangerous canning techniques, a disregard of U.S. law, (Brazilian OJ), am I going to over worry my Earthtainer leaching? I don't think so. So I wouldn't necessarily create a 200 pod farm from orange HD buckets, but if your going to use a few for a backyard garden, I think you will survive. Just an opinion, I'm no scientist.

Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk 2

I get what you are saying. My fear stems from my brother. He died last year at the age of 38 from two kinds of cancer. His Drs said it said he had Two extremely rare cancers and no only that but they could not believe how aggressive they were and they said it was so rare in someone so young. These were drs from the Mayo clinic who are on cutting edge technology. He worked with chemicals all of his adult life and ate a lot of processed food.

I have always been on the organic side but now that is all we eat and practice in our home. Like I said I am in the minority and I get what you mean.

Doug9345 · May 29, 2012

I don't think it's a big deal. They are most likely made out of high density polyethylene. Theoretically I assume the orange die could leach, but I've never seen colored five gallon pails that where faded so if it does, it has to be minimal. I have a purple five gallon pail that motor oil came in that is at least 10 years old. It's as purple on the outside as it is on the inside and it hasn't exactly been kept in a dry environment. I'll bet the health hazards from the nicotine and Solanine in the eggplant far exceeds the health problems from what ever might be in a 5 gallon pail.

If I may ask how much did you have to pay for your buckets.

ricklynchcore · May 29, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrissykin

I get what you are saying. My fear stems from my brother. He died last year at the age of 38 from two kinds of cancer. His Drs said it said he had Two extremely rare cancers and no only that but they could not believe how aggressive they were and they said it was so rare in someone so young. These were drs from the Mayo clinic who are on cutting edge technology. He worked with chemicals all of his adult life and ate a lot of processed food.

I have always been on the organic side but now that is all we eat and practice in our home. Like I said I am in the minority and I get what you mean.

Chrisskin, so sorry for your tragic loss.

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PA_Julia · May 29, 2012

You'll also have a number in the population that will smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol to excess, eat processed foods and live into their eighties .

Life is a crap shoot.

I'm sorry to hear about your brother.

To answer the OP's question; I would not hesitate to use them.

Julia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrissykin

I get what you are saying. My fear stems from my brother. He died last year at the age of 38 from two kinds of cancer. His Drs said it said he had Two extremely rare cancers and no only that but they could not believe how aggressive they were and they said it was so rare in someone so young. These were drs from the Mayo clinic who are on cutting edge technology. He worked with chemicals all of his adult life and ate a lot of processed food.

I have always been on the organic side but now that is all we eat and practice in our home. Like I said I am in the minority and I get what you mean.

JamesL · May 29, 2012

I have found this to be a very touchy subject with a lot of strident opinions on both sides.
Everyone needs to consider the issues and make their own decisions.

The BPA baby bottle scare about 5 years ago jumped to the forefront of the news right about the time I had my first child. Prior to that I could not have told you what any of the plastic recycling numbers meant.
When I first started my container growing project last year, container material was definitely on my radar screen as a possible concern. I did vast amounts of research on the subject. Lots of readily available opinions. I can also tell you what I did not find- any independent empirical studies that gave solid hard data.

Parsing the issue:
Type and availability of materials, cost, growing in ground vs containers, growing your own vs buying commercially grown produce.

Containers:
Food safety and food storage containers- Made for this purpose and have to be made from new materials with no recycled materials.
Non-food safe containers - Can be made from new and recycled material and also contain dyes.

Food storage and growing in food storage containers- Clearly you should not store food in containers that aren't intended for this purpose.
Does growing in these types of containers absolve you of the possible leaching issue? It is probably better than growing in non-food safe containers, but you are still using fertilizers and other chemicals and then sitting them out in the hot sun.
Keep in mind that non-food storage containers might have been made from recycled materials and contain dyes. Do these leach out? What else is in there?

Cost - You can buy food grade tubs and buckets - at a much higher cost. You can also get used food grade 3,4,5 gallon and sometimes larger buckets for free. Bakeries, restaurants, pizza places, delis, grocery stores - They all get frosting, dressing, barbecue sauce, etc. shipped in them. Most of the time they are throwing them away or recycling them.

You can of course get the HD or Lowe's buckets very inexpensively.

Now the NSF and other ratings given to "food grade" might be nothing more than a fig leaf of protection, and it is quite possible the manufacturing companies are doing nothing more than paying for the rating, and then charging you a lot more. (Rather cynical of course, but payoffs? To skirt regulation? No never.....)

Growing in ground vs containers - Tough to beat in-ground veggies. But what about soil quality? It is a huge issue in some areas of the country, particularly urban. If you don't "know your soil" or have had it tested, you might be worse off than growing in containers of any type.
There was discussion on another thread recently where the T'ville member watched his neighbor dump used motor oil out in the yard, a practice that was common up until the 70's.

Home grown vs. Commercial grown - I would think growing your own has to be better. Even with the advent of "organic" labeling, as what does it really mean? Drill down into the standards and see what you find as to the standard that needs to be achieved. Not to mention what can happen in shipping.
Locally grown and sold doesn't necessarily fall into the same category, so I would not lump the 2 together.

If leaching is occurring, does it make it into the plant and end up in the fruit? At what levels?

I am drinking a cup of coffee right now with a plastic lid made from PS # 6 polystyrene. It is known to release toxic chemicals, particularly when heated. Am I poisoning myself?
I am not a big fan of plastics. Odds are, it is doing something to all of us genetically, in addition to being a possible cause for cancer, etc.
Good luck avoiding them though. My pen, the keys I am typing on, that new car smell. Buy a can of beans or drink a can of soda - the liners of both contain BPA, and in fact just about all canned goods do.
Maybe I will grow my own veggies and can them to avoid plastic. Well guess what, the Ball canning jar lids have a coating of - BPA.
I could go on and on.

When you take all of our daily exposure to chemicals and pollution into context, growing in a HD bucket (which I don't use by the way) really seems kind of small.
I guess the point is, you need to decide for yourself, what you can afford, what you can obtain, and what makes the most sense to you. BUT GROW SOMETHING!

Almost a non-sequitur at this point
As to plastics - Number 2 Plastics HDPE (high density polyethylene) and Number 4 Plastics LDPE (low density polyethylene) along with Linear low-density polyethylene (LLDPE) appear to be the best choices.

ricklynchcore · May 29, 2012

Wanna really worry?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/20/op...sofa.html?_r=2

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whistler · May 29, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug9345

If I may ask how much did you have to pay for your buckets.

I gave the guy $1 each. He wanted $300 for the buckets + the mix he grew in last year, but I had no way to transport the buckets unless I could stack them together. I also had no proof of what he might have put in the buckets in terms of chemicals, and I figured I could at least clean and sanitize the empty buckets.

By the way, I overpaid for them once you consider the backbreaking work involved in cleaning and sanitizing 200 buckets. Lesson learned. Now if I could just learn not to start so many (3,000 +) seedlings! That would be helpful.

Doug9345 · May 29, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by whistler

I gave the guy $1 each. . . .
Now if I could just learn not to start so many (3,000 +) seedlings! That would be helpful.

But that's not even 1 of half of every king of tomato know, not talking about peppers, eggplants, tomatillos and related plants, broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, herbs and flowers. You've just begun.

As far as $1 a piece: New they are $2.33 each, that means for 200 of them you saved $266 dollars. If it took two ten hour days, that's 13.30 per hour. If you figure you give 20% up in taxes that means you earned $16.67 per hour plus what ever the sales tax is in your area on $266 dollars. You also would have spent time putting holes in the bottom of them.

whistler · May 30, 2012

Does anyone else grow in HD buckets, and have you had any issues with them? My other buckets are grey Lowes buckets that the mfr confirms are food safe, so maybe I'll go get some more of those.

JamesL · May 30, 2012

whistler,
The gray buckets are not food grade unless they are labeled as such. Lowes does sell white food grade plastic pails made by Encore who also makes the gray buckets. Other colors can be food grade, but typically they are white and need to be labeled as such.
If it isn't clearly labeled marketed and sold that way, it isn't.

Keep in mind that the food grade label is not the "end all be all" and food grade plastics are not completely safe. Nor are all white buckets food grade.

Case in point, BPA was in all polycarbonate up until a few years ago (which was/is food grade according to the FDA) .
All food grade gets you is the knowledge that you have brand new, un-recycled material.
Will there be leaching? probably. depends on the type of plastic. Same as any other bucket.

Does any of this matter with respect to growing tomatoes as opposed to storing food in them? I have no idea.
I don't want to discourage you from using the HD buckets, many people grow in them and have been doing so for years! Informed choice is all this is......

Here is a good link, aimed at brining but it does spell out a great deal of info on plastics and food grade.
http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/pl...html#foodgrade

May 28, 2012	#1
whistler Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: PA Posts: 100	Growing in Non-Food Safe Containers What are the risks in growing food in non-food safe containers like orange Home Depot buckets? I bought 200 of them off of Craigslist last month (already drilled for drainage, used last season for the previous owner's container garden). Did I waste my money, or can I use them to grow my eggplants and peppers? Any thoughts on alternate uses so it's not a total loss?

May 29, 2012	#4
Rockporter Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Texas Coastal Bend Posts: 3,205	I'm using Lowe's 5 gallon buckets for my self watering containers and think that question came up before I purchased them and I believe they are of the right #. I don't know about the orange buckets from HD. __________________ In the spring at the end of the day you should smell like dirt ~Margaret Atwood~

May 28, 2012	#2
Chrissykin Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: IL Posts: 87	I will most likely be alone but I wouldn't use them. The chemical leach scares the crap out of me. I loved the idea of the earthtainer but went with Earthboxes for that very reason.

May 28, 2012	#3
dpurdy Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Norwich, New York Posts: 255	whistler, Plastic containers that you may consider using to grow food will need to be from plastics Nos. 1, 2, 4 and 5. Find out the plastic number by looking on the bottom of plastic containers. There is usually a recycling sign that is a circle made up of three arrows; inside the arrows there is a number--this is the number that you need to pay attention to. Plastic containers and plastic wraps made of No. 3 have PVC in them, and the ill effects could percolate through the plant into your body. Styrofoam cups are made of plastic No. 6, and these have been found to have cancerous effects if used excessively. No. 7 contains bisphenol A and is harmful to the behavioral growth of children. Most 5 or 7 gallon buckets that I've used or seen, are listed as a No.2. As stated above, you shouldn't use plastic containers with the recycling numbers: No.3, No.6, and No.7. Yours should be fine. That's a big stack of buckets. DP

May 29, 2012	#5
ricklynchcore Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chicago zone 5a Posts: 32	Personally, I think the fear is overblown. I mean, I think of god what, the commercial growers are using with polluted water sources, harmful chemicals, crappy fertilizers, conditions of bacterial contamination, packaging made out of who knows what, dangerous canning techniques, a disregard of U.S. law, (Brazilian OJ), am I going to over worry my Earthtainer leaching? I don't think so. So I wouldn't necessarily create a 200 pod farm from orange HD buckets, but if your going to use a few for a backyard garden, I think you will survive. Just an opinion, I'm no scientist. Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk 2

May 29, 2012	#7
Doug9345 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Durhamville,NY Posts: 2,706	I don't think it's a big deal. They are most likely made out of high density polyethylene. Theoretically I assume the orange die could leach, but I've never seen colored five gallon pails that where faded so if it does, it has to be minimal. I have a purple five gallon pail that motor oil came in that is at least 10 years old. It's as purple on the outside as it is on the inside and it hasn't exactly been kept in a dry environment. I'll bet the health hazards from the nicotine and Solanine in the eggplant far exceeds the health problems from what ever might be in a 5 gallon pail. If I may ask how much did you have to pay for your buckets.

May 29, 2012	#10
JamesL Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 1,992	I have found this to be a very touchy subject with a lot of strident opinions on both sides. Everyone needs to consider the issues and make their own decisions. The BPA baby bottle scare about 5 years ago jumped to the forefront of the news right about the time I had my first child. Prior to that I could not have told you what any of the plastic recycling numbers meant. When I first started my container growing project last year, container material was definitely on my radar screen as a possible concern. I did vast amounts of research on the subject. Lots of readily available opinions. I can also tell you what I did not find- any independent empirical studies that gave solid hard data. Parsing the issue: Type and availability of materials, cost, growing in ground vs containers, growing your own vs buying commercially grown produce. Containers: Food safety and food storage containers- Made for this purpose and have to be made from new materials with no recycled materials. Non-food safe containers - Can be made from new and recycled material and also contain dyes. Food storage and growing in food storage containers- Clearly you should not store food in containers that aren't intended for this purpose. Does growing in these types of containers absolve you of the possible leaching issue? It is probably better than growing in non-food safe containers, but you are still using fertilizers and other chemicals and then sitting them out in the hot sun. Keep in mind that non-food storage containers might have been made from recycled materials and contain dyes. Do these leach out? What else is in there? Cost - You can buy food grade tubs and buckets - at a much higher cost. You can also get used food grade 3,4,5 gallon and sometimes larger buckets for free. Bakeries, restaurants, pizza places, delis, grocery stores - They all get frosting, dressing, barbecue sauce, etc. shipped in them. Most of the time they are throwing them away or recycling them. You can of course get the HD or Lowe's buckets very inexpensively. Now the NSF and other ratings given to "food grade" might be nothing more than a fig leaf of protection, and it is quite possible the manufacturing companies are doing nothing more than paying for the rating, and then charging you a lot more. (Rather cynical of course, but payoffs? To skirt regulation? No never.....) Growing in ground vs containers - Tough to beat in-ground veggies. But what about soil quality? It is a huge issue in some areas of the country, particularly urban. If you don't "know your soil" or have had it tested, you might be worse off than growing in containers of any type. There was discussion on another thread recently where the T'ville member watched his neighbor dump used motor oil out in the yard, a practice that was common up until the 70's. Home grown vs. Commercial grown - I would think growing your own has to be better. Even with the advent of "organic" labeling, as what does it really mean? Drill down into the standards and see what you find as to the standard that needs to be achieved. Not to mention what can happen in shipping. Locally grown and sold doesn't necessarily fall into the same category, so I would not lump the 2 together. If leaching is occurring, does it make it into the plant and end up in the fruit? At what levels? I am drinking a cup of coffee right now with a plastic lid made from PS # 6 polystyrene. It is known to release toxic chemicals, particularly when heated. Am I poisoning myself? I am not a big fan of plastics. Odds are, it is doing something to all of us genetically, in addition to being a possible cause for cancer, etc. Good luck avoiding them though. My pen, the keys I am typing on, that new car smell. Buy a can of beans or drink a can of soda - the liners of both contain BPA, and in fact just about all canned goods do. Maybe I will grow my own veggies and can them to avoid plastic. Well guess what, the Ball canning jar lids have a coating of - BPA. I could go on and on. When you take all of our daily exposure to chemicals and pollution into context, growing in a HD bucket (which I don't use by the way) really seems kind of small. I guess the point is, you need to decide for yourself, what you can afford, what you can obtain, and what makes the most sense to you. BUT GROW SOMETHING! Almost a non-sequitur at this point As to plastics - Number 2 Plastics HDPE (high density polyethylene) and Number 4 Plastics LDPE (low density polyethylene) along with Linear low-density polyethylene (LLDPE) appear to be the best choices.

May 30, 2012	#14
whistler Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: PA Posts: 100	Does anyone else grow in HD buckets, and have you had any issues with them? My other buckets are grey Lowes buckets that the mfr confirms are food safe, so maybe I'll go get some more of those.