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Old December 21, 2009   #16
Tania
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Originally Posted by patty_b View Post
Wondering which came first, RL or PL of Japan Tomato Tree. I have only gotten the RL's. It's a great yellow. Patty
All SSE listings indicate that it is RL.

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Old December 21, 2009   #17
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Adams Japanese Tomato Tree I believe came from me. I got seeds from Reinhard Kraft via Manfred Hahm. I asked Reinhard the question concerning RL/PL. Reinhard got his seed from Andrey and said out of 10 plants grown 6 were PL. Ami
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Old December 21, 2009   #18
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Adams Japanese Tomato Tree I believe came from me. I got seeds from Reinhard Kraft via Manfred Hahm. I asked Reinhard the question concerning RL/PL. Reinhard got his seed from Andrey and said out of 10 plants grown 6 were PL. Ami
So there is still a chance that this particular version/strain (PL) may not be stable.

I am not sure where Andrey got his seeds from, but it looks like this variety was offered at SSE Yearbooks at least since 2002. It is described at orange, 6-10 oz, regular leaf.

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Old December 22, 2009   #19
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I wonder how many plants Adam grew and if they were all PL or a mix and he culled the RL's out. The fruits on my plant were up to 500 grams. Ami
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Old December 22, 2009   #20
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Ted,

I am thinking if you sent him PL seeds than all his plants should have been PL, unless additional crossing took place...

Btw, I received your seed package today - thank you!!!

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Old December 22, 2009   #21
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Do you think having the Japan Tomato Tree be the RL and Japanese Tomato Tree be the PL would define the two different strains or is there listings for Japanese Tomato Tree in SSE also as RL? Patty
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Old December 22, 2009   #22
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Do you think having the Japan Tomato Tree be the RL and Japanese Tomato Tree be the PL would define the two different strains or is there listings for Japanese Tomato Tree in SSE also as RL? Patty
Patty, they aren't two strains when there's a leaf form that isn't the same as the original. Strain has a different meaning as I see it.

I'm wavering here b'c of the many varieties where there's two leaf types known for an original and it isn't and hasn't been abundantly clear to me that the only difference are the genes that that determine leaf type.

it would be if there was a single spontaneous mutation that changed an Rl to a PL, but let's take two different examples.

There's Kellogg's Breakfast and KBX, the PL variant. I think most folks think they're the same except for the leaf form.

But now take Cherokee Purple, which is RL and compare it with Jere Gettles Cherokee Purple Potato Leaf and with Spudakee, Bill Malin's PL version of CP.

Not everyone who compares the two variants thinks they're completely the same as CP,and most of the comments I've seen have related to taste.

I used to think that the reversion from Rl to PL WAS due to a single spontaneous mutation, but keith and I talked about that quite a bit and I agree with him that there are other ways that DNA can be altered, without naming them, and it's perfectly possible that genes other than a leaf form gene can also be changedl

And as Tania said, it could also mean that a variety was not yet genetically stable and the gene flip flops.

There was one variety that did that for me all the time. Craig, what was it? You'll remember b'c you said you had it stabilized.

I'd save seeds from the RL fruits and get both RL and PL in growouts and save seeds from the PL fruits and would get PL and RL in the growouts.

Frustrating as heck.
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Old December 22, 2009   #23
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And to throw another in the mix is the Akers West Virgina PL I grew this year. Got the seed from LooneyLinda at Davesgarden who got seeds from Sand Hill in 2007 and upon growout of 20 plants 3 were PL's. Saved seed from PL and grew next year and they were all PL's from where I got my seed. Ami
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Old December 22, 2009   #24
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Shapka Monomakha is of course right, but the translation to English is not. instead of Monomakha's (hat) it should say Monomakh's (whatever), as "a" in Russian is a declination ending (Genitive) a not a part of the word/name.
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Old December 22, 2009   #25
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Shapka Monomakha is of course right, but the translation to English is not. instead of Monomakha's (hat) it should say Monomakh's (whatever), as "a" in Russian is a declination ending (Genitive) a not a part of the word/name.
http://idigmygarden.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25280

Gunnar, since you started a thread about this variety at idig I thought I'd link to it here b'c Tania and others chimed in and it doesn't seem to be all that clear cut.

The variety was introduced by Andrey as M's hat and you and some others said, I think, it should be M's cap.

Maybe others could read the above thread and give an opinion as well.
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Old December 22, 2009   #26
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Ted My garden notes for the cp show that they were all the same pl about 14 plants

The japan tomato tree I show they were all pl about 16 plants

Thanks to everyone for all the help I'll be working on correcting this stuff for the next couple of days.

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Old December 22, 2009   #27
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Originally Posted by carolyn137 View Post
...The variety was introduced by Andrey as M's hat and you and some others said, I think, it should be M's cap.

Maybe others could read the above thread and give an opinion as well.
Carolyn,

I did read the entire thread, and I can see how one may consider translating it as a "Cap", specially due to it's shape. "Шапка Мономаха" is a very unique attire, dome, made with gold, and decorated with precious stones and fur, etc. It is believed to be called that very name for the first time in 1500's. - But, I don't believe that the definition of the word "cap" even existed back in those days.

More so, any attire to be worn on someone's head, that included fur, would automatically be called a "hat". In the simple terms, "Shapka" - is a piece of attire that one would wear on their head, but not a "light" piece and by no means represents any type of straw hat, or anything else of summer resemblance (a different names are used for those). Hat is usually a head attire to keep a person warm.

I did pull up 2 dictionaries (Russian to English), and neither mentions an English word "Cap" under any variations.

So with all do respect, I must agree with Andrey on the translation, "Monomakh's Hat"

Kind regards,
Dima

P.S. Now that I've read about this variety - interest has risen, and looks like I have to get some seeds from Tania

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Old December 23, 2009   #28
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Duh_Vinci, you will not be disappointed with Shapka Monomakha. It is an excellent variety. Ami
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Old December 23, 2009   #29
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Dima,

I'd still go with Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomakh's_Cap

or Britannica Online Encyclopedia: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/.../Monomakhs-Cap

Google: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=monomakh%27s+cap&btnG=Goo gle+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=

Another possible (and legitimate) translation is 'The Crown of Monomakh'.

Given the controversy (as it often happens with 'foreign' variety names), it is always better to stick with the original name in the original language and provide 'possible' translations in the description of a variety. Otherwise, some folks in the future may think of 'Monomakh's Cap' and 'Monomakh's Hat' as two different varieties...


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Old December 23, 2009   #30
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I'll try to say this in an attempt at a friendly and constructive suggestion. I hope no one takes offense. The website should set as a goal a professional first impression. In that regard, I think most of the comments have been more hung up on the minutia of PL vs RL and whether shapka translates as cap or hat or crown or whatever. Yet if I put myself in the position of just a casual amateur gardener, I think I'd rather feel I was ordering from a professional seed vendor than whether the varietal names reflect perfect Russian to English translations. And with regard to PL vs RL, I have received seeds for Russian varieties directly from Belarus and Russia where when grown out gave both leaf expressions. So, that appears not to be so uncommon, in my experience anyway.

What I am getting around to saying and trying to be polite about it is there are grammatical errors in nearly every seed description on the website and I think when you post something on the Worldwide Web, you are exposing it to a worldwide audience where a professional appearance is critical if one wants to be perceived as such.

Now this may seem petty to some and maybe it is. I could care less about spelling, context, typos, etc. when reading discussions on gardening boards. So long as I can understand the message, it makes no difference to me how it appears in the post. But when I read a seed catalog, I guess I expect it to be written in correct English - the international language of business. And truly I think most people take away a more positive impression when the text is correct.

Some examples: Should potato leaf be capitalized? Why? If it should be capitalized, then both words should be and not just one of them. There are several instances where the description is given as "Potato leaf."

The beefsteak vs beefstake example already has been given. There are many instances of that conflict.

There are several instances where the name of a country is not capitalized such as Siberia.

Craig LeHoullier's name is spelled a variety of ways, including "Lehoullierin" in at least once instance.

Foliage is spelled "foilage" several times.

The spacing between sentences, commas, the lack of commas in some places or the placement of commas where not correct, etc. are other examples.

The alternate use of dashes and upper case between "Mid-season" or "mid season," etc. are other examples of inconsistency or incorrect usage.

I don't want to go on and on about it. I'm not trying to act superior or unnecessarily critical. I'm just saying that correct English use gives a better professional impression in business than incorrect use. That was the intent of my original comment on the first page of this thread and the intent of this comment now. I think it's more important than nitpicking over translations or other minutia not necessarily important to the general population that will be contemplating an order from a company advertising on the Worldwide Web.
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