Tomatoville® Gardening Forums


Notices

Forum area for discussing hybridizing tomatoes in technical terms and information pertinent to trait/variety specific long-term (1+ years) growout projects.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old May 10, 2013   #31
Cole_Robbie
Tomatovillian™
 
Cole_Robbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Illinois, zone 6
Posts: 7,355
Default

What if OP breeders just lied and told everyone their seed was hybrid? That would be an easy fix to the problem.
Cole_Robbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11, 2013   #32
travis
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Evansville, IN
Posts: 2,987
Default

... and an easy lie to expose in one year, thereby ruining a reputation for future sales.
travis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11, 2013   #33
Cole_Robbie
Tomatovillian™
 
Cole_Robbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Illinois, zone 6
Posts: 7,355
Default

True, but I wonder if it ever happens. I can't see anyone saving what was labelled as hybrid seeds to regrow them just to make sure they were hybrids.

There's a rule of law about civil damages; they must be foreseeable. So if someone lies to you to sell a $3 packet of bad seed, and then you go spend thousands of dollars on an elaborate garden and hundreds of hours of your valuable time, you have every right to sue them...for $3.

My point is not to advocate dishonesty, but just that there are hardly any repercussions to it. I guess that's why there are so many seed companies that have been in business 100+ years. There is a lot of trust involved.

Last edited by Cole_Robbie; May 11, 2013 at 03:13 PM.
Cole_Robbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11, 2013   #34
travis
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Evansville, IN
Posts: 2,987
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie View Post
... I can't see anyone saving what was labelled as hybrid seeds to regrow them just to make sure they were hybrids.
In fact, this happens all the time. Several of us have or know people who have grown out varieties advertised or represented as hybrids in order to see whether they are F1 hybrids, or just to see what gives.

Little Brandywine, Bucks County, and Brandy Boy are three Burpee hybrids that come to mind as ones that several of us have grown out while members here or at Garden Web years ago.

More to the present though, there are those of us who give out the names or fairly concise descriptions of the two parents to our custom hybrids, in my case so that people recognize potential or inherent value in the hybrid. In those cases, the savvy buyer probably understands many of the characteristics of one or both parents, and what to look for when growing out F2s, F3s, etc.
travis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11, 2013   #35
carolyn137
Tomatoville® Moderator
 
carolyn137's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 20,044
Default

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=17088

The above sticky is the first one in this Forum and that b'c many many folks do not understand that F2 saved seeds from a hybrid will not normally give plants with the exact same traits as the original hybrid.

Part of the confusion was intorduced in Carol Deppe's book, 1st edition, on How to Grow your own vegetables, where she said that some hybrids are NOT hybrids,

But that was back then, not now, and I haven't heard of any F1 hybrids lately that are OP's from the get go.

And yes, I'm aware of the Brandy Boy stuff and even more awareof Bucks County Red Hybrid, name changed from what Burpee was calling Red Brandywine, no F1 about it. Sucker me looking for thuth bought the Burpee F1 seeds AND plants of the Bucks County one and compared them to the Red brandywine I'd been growing for several years, from someone in the SSE Yearbook.

They were identical, that is the F1 plants and seeds and my own Red OP Bandywine.

I've been gnashing my teeth since yesterday about an article in the local paper where the writer said that F1 seeds are not fertile? Whoa, and then went into his idea of what an heirloom is so I saved that article and his addy is there and next week I think I'll e-mail him about a few things in that article.

Perhaps the worst of it, to me at least, is where the woman who was the subject of the article , she sells fruits and I thinkp lants as well, asked for seeds back from all who bought from her and is setting up a trade situation which I could NOT understand from what was written.

Summary? If you've been here as long as I have , I mean at this site, not in general, you'd have seen how many persons have no idea about the difference between hybrids and OP's as to saved seed, seed purity and on and on.

And I'm grateful to Travis (Bill to me) who does give the parentages of any crosses he makes when offered before genetic stability.

And that b'c quite a few persons do not do that.

Carolyn
__________________
Carolyn
carolyn137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14, 2013   #36
goodwin
Tomatovillian™
 
goodwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Espanola, New Mexico
Posts: 591
Default

Interesting thread. Like other small outfits, we don't develop new varieties to sell the seed, we do it to stay ahead of the competition at the market and the seed is a nice side business.
I think people generally trust the breeder to maintain a pure line and may value the insight that person can provide.
Lee
goodwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14, 2013   #37
joseph
Tomatovillian™
 
joseph's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Cache Valley, N/E of The Great Salt Lake
Posts: 1,173
Default

I would be greatly pleased with a 5% royalty if anyone were to grow out my seed and resell it. That's the target that I aim for when sending royalty payments to seed breeders. Even if I am only growing the plants to sell as vegetables at market, I often send royalties to the small scale amateur/professional breeders who's work I am using. They don't expect it, and it wasn't part of our arrangements, but it seems right to me. 10% is a burden to me, but 5% slips out of my fingers easy as can be. I think of it as akin to "freeware", or "shareware" in the software industry, which often come with a contract that says something like "make as many copies as you like. If you find the program useful send a donation of your choosing to the programmer." I often send software royalties and seed royalties.

I really dislike selling bulk seed. Because people want to pay me a pittance for it, and then I feel cheated about all the sales that I could have had to sell as individual packets.

The corporations can make their profits from selling seed. I never send royalty payments to a corporation.

I could easily make hybrid seed. Even genetically diverse hybrid seed. But in the same way that I choose not to buy corporate operating systems or software programs, I choose to not use corporate seeds, and to not adapt the corporate model of seed distribution.

I haven't bought seed for two growing seasons now. Partly because I raise my own seed, and partly because my trading network provides more than sufficient seed for my farm.

But my primary motivation for growing seed is not to sell seed. I grow seed because landrace seeds that have adapted to my soil, climate, pests, and way of doing things grow much more reliably for me than any corporate seed that is tested for average performance in average gardens. The corporate seed model cannot provide suitable seed for my unique conditions, so I have to develop my own varieties. Some of the traits that make my plants useful in my garden have proven useful in gardens in way different climates, and so I gain a reputation, and my collaboration and swap network grows. I value the prestige over the $.

Last edited by joseph; May 14, 2013 at 05:05 AM.
joseph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 16, 2014   #38
The Future
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bermuda
Posts: 343
Default

Very interesting thread. OP breeders are in this for the love, not the money. I am spending years developing winter squash varieties that will last, taste sweet, grow in cool weather etc. After 10 years of getting a selection to be true to type, I would get $5 for a package of seeds that will be multiplied 1000 times in one season. Yippee. The business model for an OP breeder is a complex one. Weighing the work vs. owning nature and the buyer's replication of it, without a PVP - I haven't see way around that one yet. Perhaps the seedlings and/or processed product registered by the breeder, is the way to go. Until someone cracks this nut, love of the game is all we are in this for.
__________________
Wise selfishness is taking care of everyone else so that they don't bring harm to you.
The Future is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2, 2014   #39
The Future
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bermuda
Posts: 343
Default

Here is an idea that will work for some plants such as winter squash. Do not sell the seed. Grow the plant and sell the fruit. Remove all male flowers from the OP variety and grow another variety as the pollinizer. Thus folks can enjoy the OP fruit but not be OP seed. At least for a while this can be kept up in a specific locale to generate some hype, sales and appreciation for the 10 years of work to create it, without other growers getting in one the deal for pennies.

For tomatoes and other perfect flowered plants, this would be too much work for most sane people.
__________________
Wise selfishness is taking care of everyone else so that they don't bring harm to you.
The Future is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2, 2014   #40
joseph
Tomatovillian™
 
joseph's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Cache Valley, N/E of The Great Salt Lake
Posts: 1,173
Default

I've picked male blossoms on squash before (one plant only). That is some hard work... Gotta stay up on it constantly.

It'd be easier on squash to create an F1 hybrid (or several of them), and let them self or cross pollinate, and sell the F1 hybrid squash fruits. That'd keep the varieties proprietary.
joseph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 16, 2015   #41
surf4grrl
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: field of dreams
Posts: 98
Default

Quote:
A germplasm royalty of 10% net sales is pretty typical for exclusive, or perhaps co-exclusive distribution rights of an OP variety - as long as the exclusivity is maintained. Without PVP protection, maintaining the exclusivity is unlikely to last more than a year or two as various small seed companies buy seed of the new variety, produce their own seed and offer it for sale. If you also produce the commercial seed you will also be paid for that - but at a rate no higher than the seed company could contract that activity themselves. If seed of the finished OP variety, or earlier generations of the variety, are distributed widely - all bets are off on getting a seed company interested in paying a germplasm royalty.

Tom, Brad and Fred/me are all trying new and different business models to capture value for the efforts of breeders - I'd say with at least moderate success. Ultimately any model for rewarding breeders for their efforts will depend on seed buyer willingness to purchase directly from the breeder/developers, or from their authorized distributors.
Personally, I think it's the responsibility of the seed vendor to pay the royalty at the end of the year. If you are knowingly selling seed that is OP that was worked n by a breeder; it's incumbent upon you to do so.

Otherwise, there's no incentive to really breed OP material without a trademark or PVP.

We need open source material and the only way to do that is to reward the folks who create it, unless specifically told that this is "free as in speech, not free as in beer". (quoting the Open seed initiative.)
surf4grrl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 18, 2015   #42
joseph
Tomatovillian™
 
joseph's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Cache Valley, N/E of The Great Salt Lake
Posts: 1,173
Default

To me, there are plenty of incentives and rewards for plant breeding.
  • I get to dabble in art and science all rolled up together into a single activity.
  • I get crops that are localized to my garden and grow better for me than any commercially available seed. My crops are well adjusted to the soil, the climate, the bugs, and the farmer's habits.
  • I save thousands of dollars a year by not having to buy seeds, or fertilizers, or poisons.
  • The taste of the food becomes perfectly attuned to my likes and dislikes.
  • The colors, shapes, sizes, and textures please my soul.
  • I gain honor, prestige, and bragging rights.
joseph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 4, 2016   #43
nctomatoman
Tomatoville® Moderator
 
nctomatoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC zone 7/8
Posts: 9,962
Default

Very interesting read. Let's take the Dwarf Project. It grew from curiosity, turned into a labor of love, and never, ever was there any expectation on my part (and I am sure Patrina's) to make a penny from the efforts - the education gained from doing the project, the collaborations, friendships, occasional (and rare) glimpses into a less positive side of human nature, now seeing companies make them widely available are all what I consider very valuable earnings, personally...and a few really fine individuals have made some greatly appreciated donations. It has been a superb, wonderful experience at a 99% level (and there are no 100% experiences in life). Same thing with the tomato book, and I am sure, straw bale book (royalties being what they are). For those of us who have gardening passions - maybe not all, but enough - we do other things to support ourselves, which free us up to do this that we love.

That's not to say that a more altruistic business model wouldn't be appreciated, but it is what it is...and that ain't bad.
__________________
Craig
nctomatoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 4, 2016   #44
Dutch
Tomatovillian™
 
Dutch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b
Posts: 1,532
Default

Nice summation of this thread Craig (nctomatoman)! Thank you!

I know what you are talking about when you say,
"It has been a superb, wonderful experience at a 99% level (and there are no 100% experiences in life)."

And thank you for documenting so much of your journey!

Dutch
__________________
"Discretion is the better part of valor" Charles Churchill

The intuitive mind is a gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. But we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. (paraphrased) Albert Einstein

I come from a long line of sod busters, spanning back several centuries.
Dutch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 4, 2016   #45
nicollas
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: France
Posts: 137
Default

Still, it would be nice to have a way to compensate OP breeders, who are the most creative chain link from ideas to tomato on the plate, by one way or another
nicollas is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:07 AM.


★ Tomatoville® is a registered trademark of Commerce Holdings, LLC ★ All Content ©2017 Commerce Holdings, LLC ★