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Old September 22, 2017   #1
Brent M
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Default A Tomato Agricultural Breakthrough?

I am releasing a detailed video on Sunday with what I feel is a first for tomato agriculture. My first two videos on "How to Make a Seedless Tomato" are the lead up to the reveal. They are 100% true, but are just part of the story. My work is going to go forward on Sunday regardless, but I chose to comment about it all in this forum because I want the true tomato breeding experts here to watch the video and see if I've missed something. I'd like constructive back and forth conversation that is honest. I don't mind being grilled. I have been working on this for years, but it's been only me, a layman, doing all of the research, testing, etc., and I can't be all-seeing or all-knowing so I thought I'd lean on you folks.

Full disclosure. Yes, I do have a YouTube channel and yes it's monetized. I make about $80 a month on it. Peanuts in our retirement income. It's not about that. I want to rule those thoughts out for folks wondering if I have an angle. There is no angle. I am sincere. I'll chat and answer or discuss anything. Will you help me? Any and all comments are welcome too. I love talking about it so no need for experts only. Video coming on Sunday.
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Old September 23, 2017   #2
nicollas
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Well, wait & see
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Old September 23, 2017   #3
kurt
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Bring it on,pioneering is the American way,if it is feedback and constructive input I am all ears ,toes ,fingers.Honesty is worth its weight in gold,can I buy a couple kilos.thanx in advance,Kurt.


In the tville search block,a lot of the info is here already,you say you make how much/month?Dunno about utube that much,looks complicated,nothing really that new per de.
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Old September 23, 2017   #4
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my oh my.. sounds like you are really supplementing your retirement with that 80.00... just about enough to go out to eat twice or buy a weeks worth of groceries for 2... maybe. anyway I don't breed tomaotes but will give a looksee at it if I can get my intermittent-net to work well enough for a youtube video.
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Old September 23, 2017   #5
Brent M
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Thanks guys. Tomorrow it drops.
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Old September 23, 2017   #6
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No worries about the YouTube thing from me I have considered it several times.
I just need the equipment to do it and do it in a different way than anyone else.
When I get time or inclination I will look at the videos.

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Old September 23, 2017   #7
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Hi. What is your fertilizer/watering regiment for your cherry tomato? Any adverse blossom drop?
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Old September 23, 2017   #8
Brent M
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Hi. What is your fertilizer/watering regiment for your cherry tomato? Any adverse blossom drop?
11pm, 2am, and 5am I believe. 3x a day at night with 650ppm hydroponic nutrient water. That's the way I've been growing primarily for nearly 4 years straight. During the day at 2pm, there is a water-only application. Guessing, the amount of water per watering is 1/2 to 1 cup.

I have grown my cherry in Miracle Grow potting mix too. The one I chose has fertilizer in it. The reason for that it is one of the many tests I've conducted to validate things. The video will clear that part up 'cause I don't want to piecemeal the video too much.

Adverse blossom drop? In general or based on the watering regimen?
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Old September 23, 2017   #9
dustdevil
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Adverse blossom drop? In general or based on the watering regimen?
I was curious if the plant shows limits on how many tomatoes it can FULLY develop at a time...wondering if it aborts many of the blossoms if it doesn't get enough nutrients/water.
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Old September 24, 2017   #10
Brent M
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I was curious if the plant shows limits on how many tomatoes it can FULLY develop at a time...wondering if it aborts many of the blossoms if it doesn't get enough nutrients/water.
I feel like the answer is a yes. Flowers have never fallen off except for when I've broken them off harvesting. They seem to stick to the plant. All the previous generations too.
If the bud on the tomato opens, a tomato will form. On the trusses that have over 80 or so flowers, two things happen. 1, the tomatoes reduce in size from about 3/4" to about 1/2" and develop to red. 2, the big trusses seem to give up trying to push open a flower. It's like they run out of steam. The outer tips had small spikes for buds that didn't form or open. I feel like that if the plant sprawled and set roots along the branches, this cherry would have more energy and be a truss setting monster. Unverified on that though.
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Old September 24, 2017   #11
Brent M
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Default The World's First Stable Parthenocarpic Tomato

Here's the video and the big reveal. https://youtu.be/aYelAHUTU9M
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Old September 24, 2017   #12
Salsacharley
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Looks intriguing. I hope those who know about this stuff get involved. Good luck.
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Old September 24, 2017   #13
Brent M
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Looks intriguing. I hope those who know about this stuff get involved. Good luck.
Me too. It's why I'm posting it here.
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Old September 24, 2017   #14
bower
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Hi Brent

I've grown a couple of facultative parthenocarpic OP's - Cold Set and Siletz. Cold Set produced seeded fruit under most of our growing conditions. Siletz on the other hand was almost entirely seedless, and produced only a few fruit with any seeds. The seedless Siletz were not defective in any of the ways you mentioned, not malformed or odd tasting, both texture and taste were excellent and shape normal. So it isn't really true to say that you are the first to produce seedless fruit.

I also have an OP that I grow on a regular basis - Oaxaca Jewel PL originally from Solana Seeds - which produces seedless fruit in high temperatures in my greenhouse. OJPL produces varied size of fruit, but size is not a predictor of whether seeded or seedless. There is no bad shape or taste or any other defect in the seedless fruit.

So.. the genetics for parthenocarpy and seedless fruit are not really new. It is there in the tomato genome and can be found in the 'general population' as well as those varieties developed by breeders. How many different genes can produce it, I can't say but certainly several different genes are possible. So your tomato could have a previously unknown gene for parthenocarpy, or it could be one of the known genes, which you have found again in the general pool of tomato genome (as I understand you did not use the known parthenocarpic OP's to breed this cherry).

There is a simple way to test whether your tomato has a new, previously unidentified gene for parthenocarpy. That is to cross the 'Brent' cherry to a parthenocarpic variety or varieties, whose genetics are known. If the gene is the same in both parents, the F1 will be fully parthenocarpic. If the gene is different then the F1 will not be parthenocarpic (assuming that all of the parthenocarpy genes are recessive). If the Brent gene doesn't match up with any of the known parthenocarpy genes, then you will know it is a new discovery to your credit.

That being said, I don't mean to discourage you from your breeding effort, to produce more and better large tomatoes with the ability to set fruit in all conditions. Go for it, absolutely!
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Old September 25, 2017   #15
Brent M
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Hi Brent

I've grown a couple of facultative parthenocarpic OP's - Cold Set and Siletz. Cold Set produced seeded fruit under most of our growing conditions. Siletz on the other hand was almost entirely seedless, and produced only a few fruit with any seeds. The seedless Siletz were not defective in any of the ways you mentioned, not malformed or odd tasting, both texture and taste were excellent and shape normal. So it isn't really true to say that you are the first to produce seedless fruit.

I also have an OP that I grow on a regular basis - Oaxaca Jewel PL originally from Solana Seeds - which produces seedless fruit in high temperatures in my greenhouse. OJPL produces varied size of fruit, but size is not a predictor of whether seeded or seedless. There is no bad shape or taste or any other defect in the seedless fruit.

So.. the genetics for parthenocarpy and seedless fruit are not really new. It is there in the tomato genome and can be found in the 'general population' as well as those varieties developed by breeders. How many different genes can produce it, I can't say but certainly several different genes are possible. So your tomato could have a previously unknown gene for parthenocarpy, or it could be one of the known genes, which you have found again in the general pool of tomato genome (as I understand you did not use the known parthenocarpic OP's to breed this cherry).

There is a simple way to test whether your tomato has a new, previously unidentified gene for parthenocarpy. That is to cross the 'Brent' cherry to a parthenocarpic variety or varieties, whose genetics are known. If the gene is the same in both parents, the F1 will be fully parthenocarpic. If the gene is different then the F1 will not be parthenocarpic (assuming that all of the parthenocarpy genes are recessive). If the Brent gene doesn't match up with any of the known parthenocarpy genes, then you will know it is a new discovery to your credit.

That being said, I don't mean to discourage you from your breeding effort, to produce more and better large tomatoes with the ability to set fruit in all conditions. Go for it, absolutely!
Thank you! This is the kind of thing I'm looking for. I am not discouraged at all. Please allow me to discuss your post with respect. I refer to Brent as the tomato, not me. Total respect from beginning to end ok.

I do not recall saying Brent was the "the first to produce seedless fruit." I could be wrong, but I can't find it. If I did, please tell me where and I'll correct that quickly! I don't want to claim anything that isn't true. I do see where I said "first" in that it is the "First stable parthenocarpic (naturally seedless) tomato" in the subject line of the video. I have no doubts at this point. The term "naturally seedless" is in parenthesis right behind the word "parthenocarpic" only because viewers aren't aware of the term parthenocarpic, but they are aware of the term seedless. I want to add that when I say Parthenocarpic, I mean the plant is always parthenocarpic, not just some fruit, some of the time. When I say "stable", I mean it is always stable in the same fashion that you can count on a potato leaf tomato plant always to always grow potato leaves.

I don't want to disparage any work by any breeders. I am very respectful and appreciative of their work. The ones that do it through basic breeding, not so much the genetic manipulation.

As I understand it, Siletz, and all of the OSU work Oregon Pride, Oregon Spring, and Legend is a digenic mutation discovered in 1978 starting with the variety Severianin. Papers I've read have indicated that there are at least 2 parthenocarpic genes required to align to carry forward the genetics--pat-2 and potentially others like ii. They really don't know. The expression of parthenocarpic fruit growth induced by pat-2 is also considered to be affected by other factors, such as minor genes for metabolism, environmental conditions and so on. I believe that this is why OSU work is typically associated reliably with cooler weather. In the pat-2, fruit development begins before anthesis, and a pseudoembryo occupies the embryo sac cavity also preventing fertilization in the majority of cases. IOW, it is quite difficult to obtain seed and breed other lines going forward. I could be wrong, but the last influence of pat-2 potential was in the variety Legend in 2008. Pat-2 is not necessarily associated with pleiotropic issues, but the other forms of parthenocarpy are definitely associated with it. This is in the video as well. So, simply Siletz's biggest issue is that it is digenic and is difficult to work with because of it. Many folks aren't not as pleased with OSU tomato taste if you look into reviews...including folks here. Please feel free to correct anything you feel I've misrepresented. I am curious if you've been able to save seed and regrow Siletz being that it's OP.

As far as I know, Oaxaca Jewel and Cold Set aren't parthenocarpic. They may occasionally have seedless fruit, but the plants aren't genetically parthenocarpic plants. Lots of this. Extreme environments would cripple these varieties. I could be wrong, but these two haven't come up in any of my research. There are tons of examples of environmental parthenocarpy and I agree with that.

I absolutely agree that parthenocarpic and seedlessness has been around for a very, very long time. It's only lately that they're trying so hard to stabilize it in tomato lines aggressively and they're doing it all genetically right now. Brent is new work, but I don't know the genetics of it yet. Honestly, I don't care. I am hyper-focused on it's stable phenotype. The genetics can be figured out lately because there's nothing to "get around" or improve.

Very respectfully on all of this Bower. :O)
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