A little seedling trouble, mostly hearts

[tam91]

My seedlings are good-sized, about 6", and mostly look great. However, I'm starting to have just a little trouble - it's almost exclusively the hearts, several different varieties, and not close to each other in the greenhouse.

The bottom branch or two, the leaves curl downward, and eventually dry up.

Would this likely be disease, something physiological, or even expected?

They are potted in Metro-Mix 360. I have not fertilized yet, although I'm about to. It's cool out there, but not too cold as I have a heater.

Is it too soon to use some Daconil, just to be safe? I am not an organic grower, so am happy to use whatever works.

[tam91]

OK, this is very odd. My flats have all the tomato varieties mixed up in the flats. The only plants showing symptoms (probably 1 or 2 per tray) are:

Every plant of these varieties
Brad's Black Heart
German Red Strawberry
Kosovo
Vera's Seed (too lazy to look up long name)

and just a couple Brandywine Suddeth's

This is very strange, since they were all intermixed with the other plants. The seeds came from a couple different sources. Yet every single heart seedling I have has these symptoms.

I can't find a picture that looks just like this, but one plant has a spot on one leaf, so I guess I'll presume blight perhaps, and use some Daconil. The problem did start once it got cooler, and I couldn't open the windows on the greenhouse.

I also turned up the heat in the greenhouse, although with this cold weather it won't get very warm.

[ddsack]

Sounds like the infamous CRUD. If so, not to worry, hearts and wispy leafed tomatoes are more susceptible to this drying and crumbling of the older leaves. Once they get outside into natural sunlight they should be able to outgrow this. It's not totally clear what causes it or what if anything you should do about it.

Here is just one thread on CRUD
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...highlight=CRUD

There are quite a few more threads, if you want to use the search function on the message board.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by ddsack

Sounds like the infamous CRUD. If so, not to worry, hearts and wispy leafed tomatoes are more susceptible to this drying and crumbling of the older leaves. Once they get outside into natural sunlight they should be able to outgrow this. It's not totally clear what causes it or what if anything you should do about it.

Here is just one thread on CRUD
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...highlight=CRUD

There are quite a few more threads, if you want to use the search function on the message board.

Dee, I got the copy of Tam's post at home and you beat me to it as to possible CRUD. And I bet in that link I went thru all the observations for it, what to do, what it might be and why I named it CRUD lo those many years ago.

I couldn't get here until now b'c the sun finally came out for a few minutes and it was lovely in the LV, especially b'c it doesn't look like too much chance of sun for the nest few weeks, and I had to finish the chapter in a book I was reading.

[tam91]

OK, that sure fits - how interesting.

As Carolyn said some expert thought it might be an abberant form of blight, I still think my spraying may be a good idea.

We've had no sun for days now, but it will be sunny tomorrow. Lots of rainey days coming though.

There's no reason Daconil can't go on young seedlings, is there? Like I said, these are pretty big, probably 6".

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by tam91

OK, that sure fits - how interesting.

As Carolyn said some expert thought it might be an abberant form of blight, I still think my spraying may be a good idea.

We've had no sun for days now, but it will be sunny tomorrow. Lots of rainey days coming though.

There's no reason Daconil can't go on young seedlings, is there? Like I said, these are pretty big, probably 6".

Nope, I don't think spraying with Daconil would be a good idea at all.

Dr. Zitter at Cornell, with whom I spoke did, say it MIGHT be an aberrant form of Early Blight but the fact is that that was back in the early 90's and the fact that nothing else has come of that idea means that no infectious agent was found and I think I even mentioned that in that thread.

So no viable A. solani ( Early Blight), therefore no Daconil, which blocks the specific attachment sites on the upper leaf surface where the spores attach.

And there shouldn't be any spores of either of the two major Foliage pathogens nor those of the two major bacterial foliage pathogens inside.

So best to start with a Daconil regimen once you plant outside. And just as a general comment I never sprayed my young seedlings with anything when they were inside b'c younger plants are more susceptible to any anti-fungals or anti-bacterials such as copper, etc. in addition to the fact that the foliar pathogens are spread by rain and winds.

Keep your Daconil for another day.



And as you probably read in that link I did take off all affected leaves and I did isolate them from other plants nearby.

[tam91]

Thank you - ok, I will hold off spraying.

I had already moved them out of the trays with the others, and taken most of the affected leaves off.

As far as isolating them - I only have the one greenhouse. Do they need to just not be in physical contact? Or is this airborne, and should I take them back in the house under the lights? Or...?

I will go off and search also, to see if this is addressed in another thread.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by tam91

Thank you - ok, I will hold off spraying.

I had already moved them out of the trays with the others, and taken most of the affected leaves off.

As far as isolating them - I only have the one greenhouse. Do they need to just not be in physical contact? Or is this airborne, and should I take them back in the house under the lights? Or...?

I will go off and search also, to see if this is addressed in another thread.

If any other threads are here, or at any of the many message sites where I've posted about about CRUD I'm sure I posted in them unless I was in the hospital at the time for either my quad repairs or b/c of the two new hips.

There have been various reports for some folks that they've seen it spread to other plants, and many say no it doesn't, so that question can't be clearly answered by anyone.

If there's no infectious spores, that is a non viable particle, as Dr.Zitter initially suggested, then there's nothing to spread in the air that's infectious.

What I did was to seperate them physically from other plants that were also in my falling down greenhouse at the time. So they only developed this when you put them in your greenhouse and you saw nothing at all when they were inside? Strange.

Have you grown other tomato plants before in your greenhouse? Just curious. And it can affectother varieties as well, such as Kellogg's Breakfast and some others, but the wispy leaved heart varieties are the most affected in my experience. Actually I'd walk into my greenhouse with a notebook and copy down the varieties that were affected.

This isn't a panic situation since both Dee and I have said that once they're planted outside the condition goes away and the plants are fine.

Often I had to take off almost ALL the leaves on a plant leaving jsut a tuft of foliage atop the leader stem, so they looked like sticks.No problem.

I'll be back later to see if you have any other questions but right now I've got bills to pay so I can put them out for collection tomorrow morning.

[tam91]

Thank you so much for all the help. I did review the other CRUD threads that you posted in, and saw a photo that looks like my plants.

I will double check, but I believe that every heart plant is affected, and one or two Brandywine Suddeth's that were right next to them (touching). All the other varieties, and most of the Suddeth's are ok. Oh just remembered, one red pear. He was touching them also.

I moved them to a lower shelf, so that they won't touch the other plants, nor drip on them. Hopefully that will be good enough.

This is a brand new greenhouse, so it's never had anything grown in it before. There was no sign of any problem at all while the plants were inside. They've been outside the part time since the 10th, and full-time since the 15th, and suddenly the trouble started just yesterday that I noticed. It is cooler - as the weather has been so gloomy and cold here, while my heater keeps the greenhouse reasonably warm - 50 at night I think, it doesn't make it really toasty without any sun. So perhaps that's related.

The only plants that have had any difficulty before this, is the ones I mentioned in my thread "teeny tiny seedlings". Those seemed to have a similar problem in the very beginning, in the seedling tray. Three germinated, one got crispy and died very quickly. The other two just stayed tiny. I isolated them from physical contact with any others from the beginning. I actually still have those two, but they never grew. They're about 1" or 1 1/2" tall, while all my others are about 6". They have a little crisping around the edges. But they stayed inside, and never went near the greenhouse and did not have any physical contact with the other tomato plants.

[b54red]

I have also noticed this phenomenon with some of the hearts and wonder if it could be due to the downward trajectory of the stems causing so many lower leaves to touch the soil. When I set out hearts in my garden I have to trim them higher than any other varieties to stop the leaves from touching the ground.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by b54red

I have also noticed this phenomenon with some of the hearts and wonder if it could be due to the downward trajectory of the stems causing so many lower leaves to touch the soil. When I set out hearts in my garden I have to trim them higher than any other varieties to stop the leaves from touching the ground.

Bill, as I said above it's primarily with hearts but not exclusively so it has really nothing to do with drooping leaves.

It appears usually with very young seedlings inside and almost everyone grows them, after initial transfer from the seed pans, in an artificial mix.

It doesn't appear on plants planted inground outside for the first time, it appears on young seedlings inside and then actually disappears when the affected plants are set outside into real soil, aka dirt to me, and the sun and warmth are present.

Trimming leaves off newly set out plants such as you describe is fine if you're trying to prevent splashback reinfection for foliar pathogens such as the 2 major fungal and 2 major bacterial ones, if you've had plants in that area before that have had those diseases and the spores or bacteria have been shed to the ground. But that's not what CRUD is about. What you see if splashback infection occurs are the typical lef symptoms that those pathogens are noted for which are different than those of CRUD.

Hope that helps.

[tam91]

Mine went from metro-mix 200 seed starting mix to metro-mix 360. They were in the 360 for weeks though, before this started.

What was different, that I can think of, is that they were under the lights in my house, which is fairly warm and dry as I have forced air central heating.

When they went out to the greenhouse, it is much cooler out these days, plus the weather has been very rainey and damp.

Unless Carolyn says temp and damp have nothing to do with it.

Strange and annoying stuff - I'm having friends grow a couple hearts for me this year, I can hardly wait to see their delight when I proudly present them with tomat sticks, with a little mohawk of leaves on top.

[b54red]

Carolyn thanks for clearing that up. I definitely have splashback infection and by early June all of my March and April plantings of tomatoes have no leaves at least a foot from the ground. I can't even grow onions and garlic without devastating infections caused by the rain splashing dirt up on them. I now try to get a heavy layer of mulch down within a week of planting most things in the warmer months and even onions in the winter. This has really helped delay the onset of infections in tomatoes and peppers and has almost eliminated it in my onions. The only things that don't seem to have trouble with splashback infections in my garden are things in the Brassica family.

[Mark0820]

This (crud) must be what my plants have. The tips of the first true leaves on my potato leaf plants (except Cowlick's) are dried, brown and curled. I also experienced it on my Danko plants. I wondered what it was since this is my first year starting seeds for potato leaf plants.

Per Carolyn's note above, I fall into the category of people who say "no" it doesn't spread from plant to plant (anyway, I haven't experienced it). I do agree with Tam91, cold weather seems to play a role. I first noticed it after I put my plants on the porch on a cool Spring day. The crud appeared to stabilize in the warm weather and only gets worse on cool days. However, it is still isolated to the first set of true leaves (primarily the tip of the leaf).

I haven't seen a picture of crud, so I am only going by the descriptions above and assuming it is what my plants have. I could be wrong.