Garden failed this year

[Tania]

Fred, I though the more you till, the faster organic matter disappears from your soil - ?

Once we stopped disturbing the soil, we started to get organic matter slowly increasing over the last 8 years.

[KarenO]

I bet Next year will be better but add your Urea as prescribed by your soil test results in the fall if possible. I think it is important to add any significant amounts of amendments at least a few months prior to planting. as well, I am sure the recommendations are assuming you will mix the amendments in by tilling? You no tillers, can you just apply to the surface and get the results you expect?
K
PS I'm a once a year in the spring tiller in my real garden but not in my raised beds.

[Tania]

Karen,

We do not add many amendments either. Just coffee and alfalfa meal with some wood ashes and occasional (once in 2-3 years) sprinkle of fish bone meal. Everything goes on top of the soil, and gets somewhat mixed in when you dig a hole to plant (I usually dig with my hands, LOL). Then everything is covered by wood chips, and nothing is disturbed until it is time to pull the plants.

Tatiana

[cjp1953]

Originally Posted by Tania

We have been no-till since 2006. It works beautifully.
I did cover crops up to 2010, but do not do that anymore, except in garlic beds. We add lots of coffee grinds on top of the soil, and when soil warms up we add wood chips as mulch. Never need to water after that, and weeding is a breeze. Love it!

cjp, is this high pH normal for your area? It is quite high for peppers and tomatoes. I hope your next year will be bountiful!

Tatiana

According to Ohio State University Extension the PH should be between 6.0 to 6.8.I thought it was kind of high,don't know why Penn State said it was fine.They knew the state and county I was in.I'm going to correct this.The last time I took a PH test on my soil it was around 6.2,but that was 5 or 6 years ago and my friend no longer is alive.

[cjp1953]

Originally Posted by cjp1953

According to Ohio State University Extension the PH should be between 6.0 to 6.8.I thought it was kind of high,don't know why Penn State said it was fine.They knew the state and county I was in.I'm going to correct this.The last time I took a PH test on my soil it was around 6.2,but that was 5 or 6 years ago and my friend no longer is alive.

My friend had the test kit I should have stated.I heard wood chips take longer to break down.Any problems and how thick do you apply them?

[Tania]

I try to keep the wood chips mulch layer anywhere between 3" and 6". Tomatoes, peppers, root crops, squash, and brassicas love it. Never had a damaged stem yet, despite the mulch touching the plants.

Yes, wood chips take 3-5 years to break down, and the top layer stays intact almost forever (we are conifer-dominant area - deciduous chips will break down faster) - but that works for me, as it is intended to be mulch The chips start breaking down quite nicely by the mid summer when they are in direct contact with soil, and there are lots of worms there! The trick with the wood chips is you never want them incorporated / tilled into the soil, as it will tie lots of nitrogen and rob your plants. If they stay on top, this does not happen, as the N is only taken from the thin top layer of soil that is in direct contact with the chips. So the roots are not affected.

It is a different story when you compost the wood chips with coffee grinds and kitchen waste (layering them 3:1 or 5:1 chips to 'greens'). Then the pile heats up almost instantly to very high temperatures and composting process goes much faster.

I was so shocked to see how nice and rich the compost from the wood chips. Very pH neutral, high NPK, lots of organic matter that last and helps to build up soil. Unlike manures and kitchen compost that look and work great but quickly disappear after 3-5 months, and you'll have to do that again in spring. Plus wood chips hold so much water, soil is so nice and moist underneath the mulch even we did not have rain for a month, and tomatoes are under plastic cover and have only been watered once or twice since May (last time in early July).

We no longer to bring manure to our garden. We used to do that (20 cu.yd. load) every spring. It turns into dust by the end of summer. Does not work for me. Too much work for one year benefits.

Tatiana

P.S. These are pics of beans and squash in the thick layer of fresh wood chips mulch.

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/F...2014-07-19.JPG

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/F...-07-19_(3).JPG

[KarenO]

I think I would need a high moisture level, a longer warm season and mild winters to have good success with getting a thick wood chip mulch to break down. I think here it would just sit there on top of the ground. It is too dry in summer and too cold in winter for much natural composting to occur on the surface of the soil. I am careful to weed the garden well all season so no seeds are in the garden. Every fall I put leaves, compost,peat, manure on the top of my garden after removing the plants. Sprinkle on a pail of blood meal and just leave it sit there under the snow all winter. In spring I till it once to prepare for planting, it is a heavy clay loam and the weight of the heavy snow cover compacts the soil. I could dig individual holes for transplants using a no till method here but how do you plant seeds like carrots? The majority of my "real" garden is seeded rows of beets, carrots etc. ( I call this garden my real garden because it is in the ground, native prairie black loam soil as opposed to my raised beds in my yard which contain little actual soil and are comprised mainly of compost, peat etc, more like potting soil then real soil)
Karen

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by cjp1953

My friend had the test kit I should have stated.I heard wood chips take longer to break down.Any problems and how thick do you apply them?

The wood chips will deplete your soil of even more nitrogen even though people do it.
Changing soil PH.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...uVQCklNWOpnW1g

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...Ga8nefNWX4JIPw
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...y8r5F7tgjnuQ3w

Be aware that if you use any type of sulfer to lower your PH and you grow onions they will be strong and hot.

Onions like an alkali soil just about where yours is now or a little higher. and they will be sweet.

For the life of me I dont know why they said your PH was okay I guess they thought you were growing onions.

I see so many people that think they can FIX their soil by adding lime I have no idea where this came from.

Cotton seed meal is another one you can use.
Don't go to the garden center for this the price is prohibitive.
Go to a local feed store and ask for a 50 pound bag in the cow feed section.
This will also add nitrogen to your soil.
The last time I looked a little one pound bag of it in the garden section was like $10.
In the same store in the cow feed barn it was $10 for a 50 pound bag.
I just looked and the price has jumped on both of them.

It seems as though it has caught on.

One other thing you may consider is how you prepare your garden.
If you have a soil that is not well drained ((and it rains all of the time)), you may think about putting making your rows on slight hills about 6 inches high.
If it is well drained like a sandy loam you put the plants in trenches of the same depth.

After you have done all of this work you can then go to the no till method.

Another thing to consider is the water you use.
If it is heavily chlorinated it will cause you to have a high PH in your soil.

So if you decide to run a test wait a few days after a rain for the chlorine to gas off and test with filtered RO water or distilled water.
Sowing red clover will add 100 pounds of nitrogen to your soil per acre.
You need to mow it down ((before)) it blooms for this to work.

Worth

[Tania]

Karen, you can still try and I am sure you will benefit from wood chips. The caveat for your area would be that you will need to move the mulch aside to the paths in early spring, so the soil warms up faster. The mulch will not let the soil warm up. We also do that, it is easy. Once the plants are in, the mulch is put back.

As to mulch decomposting - you actually may not want that . I personally like its longevity as mulch - do not need to reapply every year! I personally consider that as a benefit, as it will very slo-o-o-o-o-wly decompose and feed the plants.

[Fred Hempel]

Tania,

Tilling does reduce organic matter. One certainly wants to reduce over-tilling.

I think the issue here is largely one of scale. The organic inputs needed to facilitate no-till are very difficult to add to acres of land at a time.

No-till is obviously working for you (and it works for us in the beds adjacent to our fields -- where we add organic matter at a rate not possible in our main fields).

Originally Posted by Tania

Fred, I though the more you till, the faster organic matter disappears from your soil - ?

Once we stopped disturbing the soil, we started to get organic matter slowly increasing over the last 8 years.

[Tania]

Worth,

There are several myths about woods chips out there. Including the N depletion and pH.
The pH is measurements read neutral (and our native soil here in PNW is very acidic!). N robbing only occurs if you apply it incorrectly (aka till into the soil).

I am not trying to convince anybody. Just sharing my own personal experience.

Cheers,
Tatiana

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Tania

Karen, you can still try and I am sure you will benefit from wood chips. The caveat for your area would be that you will need to move the mulch aside to the paths in early spring, so the soil warms up faster. The mulch will not let the soil warm up. We also do that, it is easy. Once the plants are in, the mulch is put back.

As to mulch decomposting - you actually may not want that . I personally like its longevity as mulch - do not need to reapply every year! I personally consider that as a benefit, as it will very slo-o-o-o-o-wly decompose and feed the plants.

I have tried the wood chip method.
If I put them out the mushrooms break it down really fast.
Which is a good thing for the plants
Worth

[drew51]

I think wood chips are great to keep moisture in. My problem is they add little to the soil as far as nutrition. I would still want to add manure, or another compost, or organic fertilizer. A friend in the Orchard forum on GW uses wood chips for his 300 plus peach trees. He monitors nutrient levels and after 7 years hardly any change., A slight increase in organic matter (via University soil tests). He is happy with the results as fruit trees really do not need to be over fed. His use of wood chips is that they are cheap and keeps weeds down. He needs it for weed control. Hard to keep acres of trees clear of weeds.

[Tania]

drew,

Ramial woodchips provide valuable plant nutrients over time. Much more than greens can provide. Orchards benefit a lot from it, as trees prefer fungi-dominant soil.

http://puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Cha...ips%202007.pdf

I am so sorry for hijacking the thread - we should probably open a new topic for this.

Tatiana

[Tania]

Here is the new thread dedicated to wood chips

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...184#post427184