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Old May 28, 2016   #1
Kazedwards
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Default General Breeding practices and organization.

So I have a few projects going on right now. One is garlic which doesn't need any structure at this point. The other is a pepper cross that is in the F3 stage at this point. What are different practices to organize this project? I like the way the dwarf tomato project is organized into families but what other ways used?


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Old May 30, 2016   #2
Darren Abbey
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For organization, I would guess it depend largely on the size of the project. The Dwarf Tomato project has a goal of producing lots of varieties in the dwarf format, so they have to keep much better records than what projects a single person has will need. I can simply remember what plants grew/tasted best last year (with a few notes) and move on without worrying too much about organization.

One of the practices I keep in mind is to not generally use any extra fertilizer, insecticides, etc. in my breeding projects. The idea is that anything you do to the plants during a breeding project will get incorporated into the selection forces they're experiencing. (If you always used MiracleGro, then you can very easily end up selecting plants that -require- MiracleGro to do well.) I will baby along any F1s, however, as it is only in the F2 and beyond generations that I'll be able to select on the mixed up genetics that result.
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Old May 30, 2016   #3
M.SeanF.
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... I will baby along any F1s, however, as it is only in the F2 and beyond generations that I'll be able to select on the mixed up genetics that result.
Do you often find that F1s need babying? I'm new to tomato breeding, but I was under the impression that F1s often exhibit "hybrid vigor". Do some crosses result in particularly fussy F1s? Or am I just being dense and you simply mean you will go to any length to get those precious F2 seeds?

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Old May 30, 2016   #4
Kazedwards
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For organization, I would guess it depend largely on the size of the project. The Dwarf Tomato project has a goal of producing lots of varieties in the dwarf format, so they have to keep much better records than what projects a single person has will need. I can simply remember what plants grew/tasted best last year (with a few notes) and move on without worrying too much about organization.

One of the practices I keep in mind is to not generally use any extra fertilizer, insecticides, etc. in my breeding projects. The idea is that anything you do to the plants during a breeding project will get incorporated into the selection forces they're experiencing. (If you always used MiracleGro, then you can very easily end up selecting plants that -require- MiracleGro to do well.) I will baby along any F1s, however, as it is only in the F2 and beyond generations that I'll be able to select on the mixed up genetics that result.


I have been keeping that in mind. I figure if I treat it the same as the rest of the plants it will be more accustomed to my practices and way of doing things.

The cross I have now is of a jalapeño x an unknown (Pretty sure it's hot banana). Last year I had two F1s turn up and really liked them. This year six F2s and looking forward to seeing what comes out of it.

I am also asking for future crosses. I find the idea of breeding my own very intriguing and I would like to in the future.


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Old May 31, 2016   #5
Darren Abbey
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Do you often find that F1s need babying? I'm new to tomato breeding, but I was under the impression that F1s often exhibit "hybrid vigor". Do some crosses result in particularly fussy F1s? Or am I just being dense and you simply mean you will go to any length to get those precious F2 seeds?
It is more of willing to go to extremes to get the F2 seeds.

The last tomato F1 I produced, I set aside in a planter and made sure it never got dry and so would have maximum production (of F2 seeds). That was all the babying it took.

When I wrote that I was thinking about a cross I did between Sunchoke and normal Sunflower. I wasn't sure the F1 would survive the first winter, so I took the small tubers it produced inside and stored them in a fridge where I could better keep track of the temperature. It survived the first winter, but was almost killed off by voles out in the yard the second spring. (The voles trimmed the new growth twice before I built a small vole-proof fence to keep them out. Then I had to build a larger cage to keep the deer from eating it. The assault dwarfed it for the year. (It grew 11 ft the first year with a full head of seeds; only 1.5 the second year and no seeds.) Now in its third year, it should do much better because the voles have been kept away.
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Old May 31, 2016   #6
Darren Abbey
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Originally Posted by M.SeanF. View Post
Do you often find that F1s need babying? I'm new to tomato breeding, but I was under the impression that F1s often exhibit "hybrid vigor". Do some crosses result in particularly fussy F1s? Or am I just being dense and you simply mean you will go to any length to get those precious F2 seeds?
F1s often show hybrid vigor, but not always. If the cross is between species, there are likely to be more biological incompatibilities that may be resolved in the F2+ generations. As an extreme example... many interesting hybrids have been done in the genus Lillium that were only successful due to embryo rescue techniques. The F1 seed itself wasn't able to survive without help, but the resulting plants work just fine.

If I were growing crosses between the typical tomato and any one of the several species it can cross with, I'd put extra efforts into making sure it survived (even though such crosses aren't as difficult as in the Lillium example).
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Old June 1, 2016   #7
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Like Darren, I'm kind of harsh with my segregating crosses. In general, I'm a very darwinian tomato grower - only the strong survive!

As far as organization, I take tasting and growing notes from every single seg of every line I grow. I also take a picture with the seg name written on the fruit in sharpie. That's a lot of pictures and notes, but I've always been glad to have them.
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Old June 2, 2016   #8
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I have multiple crosses going in a small space, so keeping track of who's who could certainly fail if I don't get them labeled. I have to use names as well as numbers because I just can't remember wordless letter-number strings and I caught myself mixing up the similar ID numbers last season. I'm keeping track of earliness which is an important feature for me, so losing track during the season would mean I might lose the trait I noted down early on. For plants in the same line, I've been using differences in flowering time, bud size, or growth habit at the seedling stage to make up an ID tag of numbers/letters that reminds me of the early features of the plant and distinguish from sibling plants. This year I'll be using flower colour for some of them, was just looking at that yesterday re: predictions of fruit colour.

As soon as I put seeds to germinate I open a text file for my notes for the year. This is where I log the weather every day leading up to transplant and after, that is temperatures in the greenhouse and any other notable conditions, anything I want to comment about the seedlings, note the day I transplanted, took pix for data, etc. what fertilizer, state of the plants, reactions to stress, pests.... Whatever comes up and whatever level of detail I feel like putting in or have time for.

I keep notes of germination dates and then when the plants are starting to flower I set up a table for each plant to write down germination, date of flowering, date of setting, date first ripe. This way at the end of the season I have a data sheet for earliness, and don't have to rely on vague memories or impressions. No time to do that yet so the first notes are there in the text file.

I'm just in the middle of transplanting and left their beer cups for ID until I get, I guess I'll be going with a box of plastic spoons from the dollar store, black sharpie held up well last year and the cutlery didn't break or get lost.
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Old June 2, 2016   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M.SeanF. View Post
Do you often find that F1s need babying? I'm new to tomato breeding, but I was under the impression that F1s often exhibit "hybrid vigor". Do some crosses result in particularly fussy F1s?
I've grown out 3 DIY F1 tomato varieties through a few generations. One of them was particularly fussy. It made it to two inches tall while a plant with the same parent was already a foot tall and flowering. Eventually, the fussy hybrid produced seed, and some of the offspring are lovely. But I definitely wouldn't attribute any hybrid vigor to it.

The phrase "combining ability" is used to describe hybrids. Some plants work well together as parents to a hybrid. Other parents are unsuitable: They don't work well together.
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Old June 2, 2016   #10
joseph
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My record keeping about plant breeding consists more or less of writing a description of the mother plant on the seed packet.

I might include a description on the seed packet about what family the plant came out of, or who's the daddy if that's known.

I post photos to on-line forums about the projects I am working on. Those usually contain a description of why I posted the photo.
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Old June 3, 2016   #11
M.SeanF.
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Originally Posted by joseph View Post
I've grown out 3 DIY F1 tomato varieties through a few generations. One of them was particularly fussy. It made it to two inches tall while a plant with the same parent was already a foot tall and flowering. Eventually, the fussy hybrid produced seed, and some of the offspring are lovely. But I definitely wouldn't attribute any hybrid vigor to it.

The phrase "combining ability" is used to describe hybrids. Some plants work well together as parents to a hybrid. Other parents are unsuitable: They don't work well together.
Thank you. Your answer brought it into focus for me and made me recall complimentary/incompatible traits from biology class.

Sean
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Old June 4, 2016   #12
Kazedwards
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Thanks for the all of the suggestions everyone. I have a few ideas of how I will track the line.


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