"Adaptation to the Garden"

[aclum]

Hi,

Recently I've been re-reading bits and pieces of Carolyn's Book (100 Heirloom Tomatoes for the American Garden). I keep running across very interesting stuff that I'd sort of just skimmed over before because I wasn't interested in at the time or that I'd just forgotten. One such thing was the mention of some varieties (notably Hungarian Oval and Santa Clara Canner) possibly needing "adaptation to your garden" to perform well.

In the two instances named above the plants didn't fare too well in the particular garden/climate, but growing the second year from seeds saved from the fruit of the original planting performed much better and continued to do so in subsequent years.

The way I read it, it seemed like such an easy thing to do and sort of like it was an accepted or known practice. First I'd heard of it, but that doesn't mean anything!

I've had varieties that people rave about but just never do well for me. I'll give it second or third chances, but still same disappointing results. As I just started doing some seed saving last year, I had always replanted from the original seed packet. I take it that now, if I wanted to give it a fair shot, I should grow it out year 1, save the seeds and use these for my "second chance" growout. And that the variety may well then be adapted to my garden and actually live up to all the "hype" !

It seems sort of improbable to me that an adaptation could take place so quickly. I don't really understand it all and would like to learn more. Anyone care to explain/discuss it in more detail?

Thanks!
Anne

[carolyn137]

https://www.google.com/#q=mycorrhiza...+with+tomatoes

Anne check the link above for the relationship between mycorrhizae and tomato roots and benefits to the plants.

There are different kinds of mycorrhizae, and it seems to explain what I and others have seen, albeit not very frequently'

I'm not talking about adaptation in terms of landraces, heaven forbid, for we've had some very contentious threads here about landraces recently which is why I wanted to make it abundantly clear that it had nothing to do with landraces...

As you can see from the source list in the back of my book my Hungarian Oval seeds were from TN and my Santa Clara seeds from the USDA when it was still possible to request tomato seeds from the USDA/

Another one I initially had problems with was:

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/A...%27s_Jumbo_Red

Which is in my book and my seeds were from Andrew Raharts son John who grew his father's varieties in WY and I mention it now b'c it was John who first suggested to me about a possible mycorrhizae association, but my Google search above shows that much more info is now known, note the link to the one lab where that's all they study.

And I'm also remembering that he sent me quite a few Devil's Claw pods, but I never removed the seeds, and which I hadn;t even asked him for.

Carolyn

[joseph]

It might have something to do with landraces... If there is any genetic diversity within the population and the farmer is inadvertently using propagules from the best growing plants within the population. Or if there is inadvertent cross-pollination going on and the farmer doesn't realize because a year is a long time for a fickle memory to remember all the phenotypic traits of a variety, and then the farmer is selecting from an even more diverse population.

But lets leave those sorts of issues aside because people that grow garlic sometimes claim that it may take a few years to adjust to growing in a particular garden and that it gets better for a few years after arriving at a new garden. Since garlic is a clone and the DNA does not change, perhaps there is another explanation: epigenetics, gene activation in the mother plant, due to environment, that is passed still-active through the embryo into the offspring. The underlying DNA remains unchanged, but how that DNA interacts with the environment may be modified by the experiences of the mother and/or father.

I haven't tried to measure epigenetic effects in my garden, but I sometimes wonder when I start localizing plants to my garden how much of the dramatic improvements I see are due to changes in the underlying DNA and how much is due to the activation of previously unused DNA. I definitely recommend doing the "Second Chance" grow-outs from seed that you have saved yourself. At least in my garden there are dramatic differences in environment between the typically damp/overcast growing conditions in Oregon -- where much Organic seed is produced -- and the super-arid brilliant sunlight that my plants are exposed to. I think it's very possible that the different environments might activate different sets of genes, and that those gene-activations can be passed on to the offspring.

Other improvements might be attributed to mechanics: The farmer learning what a plant needs and more fully meeting those needs. That certainly happened to me regarding fava beans and garbanzo beans. Both of them are cool weather crops that I planted for the first time during hot weather, after all danger of frost. Oops!!! They did much better when I planted them as soon as the snow melted. The farmer learned what the plants needs were and more fully met those needs and the plants thrived. The first year I planted favas I didn't get a harvest. The second year I got a meager harvest. This year the plants are already flowering, and it's still weeks earlier than
I even planted them that first year!

[Redbaron]

Turns out that micro-organisms can actually activate biochemical pathways that stay active even after the micro-organism is gone, and even through the following generation. This is one way beneficial bacteria and fungi work. Sounds strange, but it actually has been confirmed by science. So this ability in plants can partly explain a "bad generation" followed by a "good generation". Plants do have some ability to adapt by activating dormant genes, which is very different than actually having an actual genetic change through mutation or out crossing with new genetic material. Tomatoes most generally self pollinate.

[carolyn137]

Joseph, I strongly implied in my above post that I didn't want any dicussions of landraces in this thread. Your viewpoint on such is not the same as many others as all the threads here and elsewhere have shown.. And at idig Keith Mueller ( Olerist at idig) also commented about your views and offered an alternative explanation to you. I've known Keith for a very long time and he knows more about tomato genetics than most others I know

My current interpretation is that certain mycorrhizae are found in certain places and not in others and seed saved from my initial growing of the varieties mentioned above did much better, actually thrived, when I used seeds saved from the fruits on the inital plants the very next year, and in subsequent plantings as well, since at the time I was SSE listing many hundreds of varieties and had to regrow varieties for seed stock.

Carolyn, who liked reading some of the links in the Google link she put up which were new to her and seemed to support her viewpoint.

[joseph]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

My current interpretation is that certain mycorrhizae are found in certain places and not in others

So part of the process of localizing a tomato cultivar to my garden would be acclimatizing the plants to get along well with the local mycorrhizae which might be different than the mycorrhizae that existed in the foreign soil where the seed was produced? Can I therefore in general expect tomato plants to grow better for me if they are planted back into the same soil in which their parents grew? Hmmm.

[aclum]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks so much for all of the responses. I've just sort of glanced at the links so far, Carolyn, but they look really interesting! One in particular seems to discuss the "communication" between the plants via the mycorrhizae. Reminds me of "The Secret Lives of Plants" (on Nature or NOVA, I think).

It's sort of mind-boggling to me to find out as Redbaron said that:

micro-organisms can actually activate biochemical pathways that stay active even after the micro-organism is gone, and even through the following generation

The concepts of activating dormant parts of DNA and epigenics are also extremely interesting. I think I have a lot of "reading-up" to do !

In the meantime, I have just gone out and fertilized all my plants with a fertilizer containing added mycorrhizae (which I've not done for several weeks).

Also, Carolyn, very interesting to read about your experience with the grow-outs in more detail than what's in the book. Thanks for looking things up for me and happy that you enjoyed reading the links too!

Anne

[feldon30]

I always have a hard time with these kinds of threads, because the idea of perfect flowers on a tomato is, every year, you get the same thing. The wish of many heirloom tomato growers is that we are growing the same variety from 100 years ago, not something that has mutated, wiggled its DNA, and changed to "adapt" to my garden. So the concept that there is really nothing we can do to preserve a variety exactly from year to year due to all these purported changes by mychorrizae, mutations, and whatever else, throws into question the whole idea of preservation and disturbs me deeply.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by feldon30

I always have a hard time with these kinds of threads, because the idea of perfect flowers on a tomato is, every year, you get the same thing. The wish of many heirloom tomato growers is that we are growing the same variety from 100 years ago, not something that has mutated, wiggled its DNA, and changed to "adapt" to my garden. So the concept that there is really nothing we can do to preserve a variety exactly from year to year due to all these purported changes by mychorrizae, mutations, and whatever else, throws into question the whole idea of preservation and disturbs me deeply.

It shouldn't disturb you deeply IMO but I don't have the time now to answer in more detail.

I'll just say that I've grown now 4,000 plus varieties and the ones above that I mentioned were the only three I encountered that didn't perform well the first year, the varieties WERE correct, but saved seeds from those initial ones gave better plants and yields.

Carolyn

[mensplace]

I have always wondered whether the concept of buying commercially packaged micro-organisms is rather like trying to maintain San Francisco sourdough cultures in GA, i.e., the San Francisco cultures will die out and soon be replaced by the native yeasts. If I introduce long tended and developed composts, then I would get all the local organisms I need, while those introduced from elsewhere would soon succumb to local conditions and organisms.

[joseph]

I love importing foreign micro-organisms into my garden, because I figure that they may be hybridizing with the local populations, and/or growing side-by-side with them and I end up with a more genetically-diverse population of micro-organisms. I generally prefer to import wild populations rather than commercial strains, but I'll take whatever I can get.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by mensplace

I have always wondered whether the concept of buying commercially packaged micro-organisms is rather like trying to maintain San Francisco sourdough cultures in GA, i.e., the San Francisco cultures will die out and soon be replaced by the native yeasts. If I introduce long tended and developed composts, then I would get all the local organisms I need, while those introduced from elsewhere would soon succumb to local conditions and organisms.

There is that! In fact I was researching some organic techniques on the web and found some research that said exactly that. Many of the beneficial micro-organisms we introduce especially in composts get overtaken by the native flora once in the soil.

However, many times certain beneficials are lacking in poor soil. So introducing them is still beneficial. If they can find a niche and thrive, all good. If a native wild strain is already there, then they'll die out rapidly, but will be replaced by the wild beneficials. That's good too. As long as all the niches are filled the soil will self balance itself.

The goal is to eventually not need to have any inputs at all because you have a sustainable balanced healthy living soil biome that your tomatoes thrive in. Nature will probably tend to produce that, but it might take 10's, 100's or 1000's of years naturally. The techniques of biomimicry take those natural processes and jump start them, so we can do in a year or two what might that nature a very long time if unaided. But ultimately you'll want to get to the point that you have so much healthy fertile soil that you don't need to do much but plant, mulch and harvest. Nature doing all the rest of the work for you.

Originally Posted by aclum

It's sort of mind-boggling to me to find out as Redbaron said that:

micro-organisms can actually activate biochemical pathways that stay active even after the micro-organism is gone, and even through the following generation

The concepts of activating dormant parts of DNA and epigenics are also extremely interesting. I think I have a lot of "reading-up" to do !


Anne

Here's something to get you started.

Mycorrhizal Fungi: The World’s Biggest Drinking Straws And Largest Unseen Communication System

Fighting Microbes with Microbes
Doctors turn to good microbes to fight disease. Will the same strategy work with crops?

Originally Posted by feldon30

I always have a hard time with these kinds of threads, because the idea of perfect flowers on a tomato is, every year, you get the same thing. The wish of many heirloom tomato growers is that we are growing the same variety from 100 years ago, not something that has mutated, wiggled its DNA, and changed to "adapt" to my garden. So the concept that there is really nothing we can do to preserve a variety exactly from year to year due to all these purported changes by mychorrizae, mutations, and whatever else, throws into question the whole idea of preservation and disturbs me deeply.

No need to trouble yourself about it. If you read the links I posted above, you'll find this:

Surprisingly, there is some evidence that the effects of beneficial bacteria can endure across generations. Even after a bacterial community wanes, the biochemical pathways developed by the plants in response to bacterial colonization remain intact. “This suggests the bacteria function as a vaccine of sorts,” says Bais. This heightened disease response can then be passed to the next generation of plants. For example, even when progeny are not exposed to B. subtilis, they are better able to fight disease if parent plants fostered a relationship with the bacterium. “The bacteria help prime the plant to respond more quickly to disease, and they pass this memory to the next generation,” says Bais. The effects appear to last the duration of the offspring plant’s life, but are not passed on to a third generation.

So you see? The plant can adapt to local conditions, and even transmit certain of these adaptations to the next generation. However, once the condition is removed, the gene will go back to being dormant again in the third generation. If you think about that for a while you'll see that you haven't actually changed the genetic profile of the seed at all. All that happened is that genes controlling certain biochemical pathways were activated from their dormancy and if/when the biochemical pathways are no longer needed, they will return to being dormant. Your idea of preserving 100 year old cultivars is still valid and important!

[travis]

I think "adaptation" of a line of tomatoes to a particular garden has a lot to do with selection of superior examples by the individual grower over extended periods of time. Well, I know it happens that way with me anyhow, because I never save seeds from an inferior example of a variety. Instead I always save seeds from the superior example(s).

As to "adaptation" that appears to have occurred in cases where "it didn't do well the first year, but the second year it performed much better," I attribute to variable soil and weather conditions one summer to the next.

I would love to see good data indicating acclimation of a tomato variety over an extended run of years, but I have not seen anything other than casual anecdotal evidence, and even that came without any data relative to weather and soil conditions.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by travis

I think "adaptation" of a line of tomatoes to a particular garden has a lot to do with selection of superior examples by the individual grower over extended periods of time. Well, I know it happens that way with me anyhow, because I never save seeds from an inferior example of a variety. Instead I always save seeds from the superior example(s).

As to "adaptation" that appears to have occurred in cases where "it didn't do well the first year, but the second year it performed much better," I attribute to variable soil and weather conditions one summer to the next.

I would love to see good data indicating acclimation of a tomato variety over an extended run of years, but I have not seen anything other than casual anecdotal evidence, and even that came without any data relative to weather and soil conditions.

Bill, I agree with most of what you say, but with only three varieties out of the thousands I've grown doing that I do wonder if it was due to variable soil and weather conditions. And I don't thinkI grew any of those in the same seasons, but I lost a lot of my data books when I moved here since there was a rush to move before they started putting in a new bridge at the bottom of my road over which the heavy moving van would have to go. And in the rush those data books went AWOL,

Which amuses me a bit since to get to my home one has to drive over a stone bridge put up in the late 1800's that's still fine as far as I know. When i was still able to drive backing up over that narrow bridge was a bit of an initial challenge and my brother was worried that i'd back up into Buttermilk Falls Brook, over which that bridge spanned.

And I agree with your last paragaph completely.

Carolyn

[feldon30]

Originally Posted by travis

I think "adaptation" of a line of tomatoes to a particular garden has a lot to do with selection of superior examples by the individual grower over extended periods of time. Well, I know it happens that way with me anyhow, because I never save seeds from an inferior example of a variety. Instead I always save seeds from the superior example(s).

As to "adaptation" that appears to have occurred in cases where "it didn't do well the first year, but the second year it performed much better," I attribute to variable soil and weather conditions one summer to the next.

I would love to see good data indicating acclimation of a tomato variety over an extended run of years, but I have not seen anything other than casual anecdotal evidence, and even that came without any data relative to weather and soil conditions.

That's the kicker. It all sounds very intriguing, but I'm not sure enough research has been done to definitively show that the success of a tomato variety in successive years in a garden can be attributed to anything other than improvements in the gardener's skillset, improvements in the soil, and climatic variation.

In the next few years as at home genetic testing becomes affordable, I think a lot of heirloom tomato mysteries will be solved and the kind of research being mentioned here could be crowdsourced much as the Dwarf Project did to dwarf tomato varieties.