Dwarfs - Determinate, Indeterminate, Tree-Type?

[Hudson_WY]

Dwarfs are marketed confusingly to me - please help me out! After growing a Dwarf for the first time last year - I think I understand the characteristics of a Tree Type (Dwarf) plant - I witnessed their production! First here are the definitions as I understand them.

Tree-Type (aka Dwarf) - One class of tomatoes exhibits characteristics of both determinate and indeterminate types. Historically called "tree-type," they are now commonly referred to as dwarfs. Tree-type tomato plants have very thick main stems with minimal branching. They grow slowly and primarily vertically. Their foliage can be either regular or potato leaf but in either case, are rugose (e.g. dark green in color and crinkly in texture). Due to their slow growth rate, they appear from a distance to be determinate achieving three to four feet in height. However, like indeterminate, they continue to set fruit throughout the growing season.

Determinate - Determinate tomato plants are also called bush tomato, which grow up to about five feet. They stop growing once the shoots set fruits. These varieties usually produce fewer crops, but their fruits are matured in a short period of time.

Indeterminate - Indeterminate tomato plants continuously grow even after they produce fruits until they are killed by frost or disease. They usually grow up to 10 feet; hence require supportive staking or caging, unlike the determinate tomato varieties. Unlike the determinate varieties, these varieties produce larger crops but take a longer period to mature fruits. Indeterminate tomatoes are also called vining tomatoes.

Question: From these definitions can a Dwarf tomato plant be labeled Determinate? Can a Dwarf plant be labeled an Indeterminate? Aren't they all "Tree-Type" - part determinate and part indeterminate - a separate class of Tomatoes! Is it more accurate to label them as a Bush Dwarf or Vine Dwarf? Maybe it doesn't matter but it seems to me that all Dwarfs should be labeled "Tree-Type". To most folks Dwarf means tiny but a Dwarf is much more than that - it is a "Tree-Type" - part determinate and part indeterminate??

[PhilaGardener]

Determinate and Indeterminate can apply to any tomato, not just Dwarfs (and some folks will use terms like semi-determinate to describe intermediate phenotypes).

The Dwarf tomato project has been breeding rugose foliage/upright trait plants in combination with a variety of fruit characteristics brought in from other lines. These plants are very different in their architecture than many of the classic, sprawling heirlooms and are refreshingly different.

There are other projects, often described in other threads in this form, for micro tomatoes, etc., and that is where the terms may seem to get confusing, but each group has a unifying theme.

[Worth1]

I dont know where to start because the descriptions to a degree are geographically bound to certain areas and growing conditions.
Worth

[Gerardo]

The best way is to grow a few micros (Mohamed, Red Robin) vs "regular" dwarfs (50+ from the Dwarf Project thus far) and you'll see the difference firsthand. Very cool plants, very productive.

It won't take up much space.

[Ricky Shaw]

Beautifully gnarly, expressive, and they will pout, are some of my first year impressions.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Hudson_WY

Dwarfs are marketed confusingly to me - please help me out! After growing a Dwarf for the first time last year - I think I understand the characteristics of a Tree Type (Dwarf) plant - I witnessed their production! First here are the definitions as I understand them.

Tree-Type (aka Dwarf) - One class of tomatoes exhibits characteristics of both determinate and indeterminate types. Historically called "tree-type," they are now commonly referred to as dwarfs. Tree-type tomato plants have very thick main stems with minimal branching. They grow slowly and primarily vertically. Their foliage can be either regular or potato leaf but in either case, are rugose (e.g. dark green in color and crinkly in texture). Due to their slow growth rate, they appear from a distance to be determinate achieving three to four feet in height. However, like indeterminate, they continue to set fruit throughout the growing season.

Determinate - Determinate tomato plants are also called bush tomato, which grow up to about five feet. They stop growing once the shoots set fruits. These varieties usually produce fewer crops, but their fruits are matured in a short period of time.

Indeterminate - Indeterminate tomato plants continuously grow even after they produce fruits until they are killed by frost or disease. They usually grow up to 10 feet; hence require supportive staking or caging, unlike the determinate tomato varieties. Unlike the determinate varieties, these varieties produce larger crops but take a longer period to mature fruits. Indeterminate tomatoes are also called vining tomatoes.

Question: From these definitions can a Dwarf tomato plant be labeled Determinate? Can a Dwarf plant be labeled an Indeterminate? Aren't they all "Tree-Type" - part determinate and part indeterminate - a separate class of Tomatoes! Is it more accurate to label them as a Bush Dwarf or Vine Dwarf? Maybe it doesn't matter but it seems to me that all Dwarfs should be labeled "Tree-Type". To most folks Dwarf means tiny but a Dwarf is much more than that - it is a "Tree-Type" - part determinate and part indeterminate??

Hudson,you just did a post about this, was it yesterday? andI referrred you to The Dwarf Project here at Tvillle,after you posted what you saw Mike Dunton at Victory Seeds posting about and coped that to your post.

The discussion about tree types,as you know,goes way back to Tomato de laye inFrance,and there are other threads currentlyin the Legacy Forum that might be of interest as well

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=7551

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=30839

I still think the best discussion about so called tree types was written by Craig in the Dwarf Project introduction and last night I saw that you were there and now I see you transferred it to here.

Speaking just for me now, that you have answered your own questions after qouting what Craig wrote.

If I'm wrong, please correct me as to where either my or your confusion still exists.

Since Craig has little time to read anything other than material about the Dwarf Project I'll PM him and ask him to comment on your post if he has time,which might help.

Carolyn

[Hudson_WY]

Carolyn,
It is the marketing that is confusing? Seed companies are attaching labels - but are they accurate?
If you search New Big Dwarf from seed sources you will find that it is labeled by some as - Determinate, by others as Indeterminate, others Tree-Type, and others dwarf -Indeterminate? No, it is not Determinate because it is ever-bearing, No, it is not Indeterminate because it is a bush sized plant - it's neither. It is a "Tree-Type" - both determinate and indeterminate. Is that correct thinkingt?

Shouldn't there be a standard for how a Dwarfs are labeled. Is the Dwarf a "Regular" Dwarf like Gerardo explained or a "Tree-Type". Tree-Type is a separate class of Dwarfs? Shouldn't it be marketed that way?

[ContainerTed]

I had made the post below at the same time Hudson posted. Edited to include:

Hudson, it sounds like you are having frustration in how retailers market their products - how they categorize/glorify their products. Most retailers will lie, change names and put spin on descriptions to get you to buy from them. It's has been and still is a case of "buyer beware".

Original post:

Hudson, if you have a couple extra 5 gallon containers or room for a couple plants in your garden, then I suggest you grow (from the Dwarf Project) Dwarf Sweet Sue and Dwarf Arctic Rose. Then come back here and tell us which one is a "Determinate" and which one is an "Indeterminate".

Mother Nature doesn't like us putting hard and fast labels on her gifts to us. And, there is a real change going on with so many folks doing cross-breeding. The "old" categories just can't hold true with so many combinations and re-combinations of traits. I noted that your list above did not include "Semi-Determinate" which is now generally accepted thru out the gardening community.

Get ready for more changes coming in the near future. I believe the real excitement is in trying to anticipate what those changes might be. I've already thrown away my old worn out gardening dictionary. It is so far behind now that it is almost devoid of useful meaning.

JMHO

BTW, both of the recommended tomatoes taste good.

[Hudson_WY]

Hi Container Ted,
I think that is my point - I wouldn't call either Determinate or Indeterminate. Aren't they both Tree-Type? Aren't they both ever-bearing?

My Understanding is that Tree-Type is the term for "Semi-Determinate"?

You have a good point about changes and Mother Nature. It is difficult to know what you are getting currently when it comes to seed sources and Dwarfs - IMO

[Worth1]

Dwarf Sweet Sue and Dwarf Kelly Green both from the dwarf project.
Never mind the brown spots it is acid burn.
Worth
IMG_20160306_26511.jpg

IMG_20160306_38255.jpg

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Hudson_WY

Carolyn,
It is the marketing that is confusing? Seed companies are attaching labels - but are they accurate?
If you search New Big Dwarf from seed sources you will find that it is labeled by some as - Determinate, by others as Indeterminate, others Tree-Type, and others dwarf -Indeterminate? No, it is not Determinate because it is ever-bearing, No, it is not Indeterminate because it is a bush sized plant - it's neither. It is a "Tree-Type" - both determinate and indeterminate. Is that correct thinkingt?

Shouldn't there be a standard for how a Dwarfs are labeled. Is the Dwarf a "Regular" Dwarf like Gerardo explained or a "Tree-Type". Tree-Type is a separate class of Dwarfs? Shouldn't it be marketed that way?

I understand,but no one has control over what many seed vendors say about a variety, and there never will be.I don't see ANY standards ever being defined for the simple reason that there are so many different seedvendors and they often just copy info from others about a variety that might be wrong and don't even grow their own plants,in several situations I know of.

When I was younger and bolder I would be asked by this or that person about a description/picture,at a seed site,and indeed it was wrong.I would send a nice e-mail about it and usually but NOTalways was thanked for the correction and in several situations my e-mail was ignored and the wrong info stayed..

Needless to say I seldom do that anymore.

Carolyn

[Worth1]

Sort of like the Miss America beauty contest.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Worth

[ContainerTed]

Actually, the term "semi-determinate" is not exclusive to dwarfs. I have many non-dwarfs that are semi determinate. One that comes to mind immediately is the hybrid "Celebrity". Advertised to set one crop and then expire, I have always had a second crop from most of the plants.

I guess my message is to not get too hung up on those terms. I certainly think that the vast majority of dwarf tomatoes can be described as "Tree Types". But, that (to me) only acknowledges the presence of a strong main stem much thicker and stronger than, say, Cherokee Purple or Celebrity.

I use "Determinate" to describe any tomato plant that sets its fruit and delivers them all within a very short period of time and then expires.

"Indeterminate" and "Semi-Indeterminate" are plants that will continue to grow stems and set fruit until good old mother nature takes them out with frost.

And, there can be good arguments for some varieties in some years will give other results - something "in between" or even completely opposite of the expected or normal.

Here's what works for me.

1. Most dwarfs are tree types (note that I say "most")
2. Determinate is a growth and fruiting characteristic
3. Indeterminates can be with me at first frost
4. Retail marketing descriptions should always be viewed with some skepticism
5. The only true characteristics of a variety are what I see in "MY" garden.

BTW, you're gonna love working on the dwarfs that come from the Dwarf Project. It's like going back to school and having fun and liking it.

[Hudson_WY]

Carolyn,
Maybe the Dwarf Project leaders - having relationship with seed companies could contact all seed suppliers with the correct labeling of these new crosses and educate them on how to market them. Tree-Type is something new to the public and could be a great way to market these new varieties and separate them from the rest of the tomato seed crowd? I think marketing may be important to the project? The name "Dwarf" is important but ever-bearing tomatoes (characteristic of Tree-Type) separates this group into a special class - IMO. Just a suggestion

[travis]

http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/data/acc/genes.aspx

"Tree type" is the old timey name for dwarf tomatoes.

There are many different expressions of "dwarf" tomatoes.

A list of dwarf alleles is available at a website I will try to attach later.

Dwarf tomatoes can be determinate, indeterminate, semi-determinate just like normal tomatoes.

Dwarf, simply put, is extremely shortened internode spacing accompanied by rugose leaf.

But now there are dwarf types with leaf forms other than rugose due to the breeding of extreme and micro-dwarves and birdnest dwarf types.

At the top of my post is a list of tomato genes. Scroll down to D.